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COLLEGE i? ARK. Mfe 



0O NOT CiRCl U.A1> 



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in 2013 



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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION, 



COMMISSION MEETING 
John Holiday Room, Holiday Inn 
Baltimore, Maryland 
October 14, 1966 



VOLUME VI 



/G 0/ 
/ 9 b 7 

FOL /o 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



WILLIAM PRESTON LANE, JR. 
Honorary Chairman 

H. VERNON ENEY 
Chairman 

ROBERT J. MARTINEAU 
Secretary 



E. DALE ADK1NS, JR. 

HARRY BARD 

CALHOUN BOND 

ELSBETH LEVY BOTHE 

FRANKLIN L. BURDETTE 

RICHARD W. CASE 

HAL C. B. CLAGETT 

CHARLES DELLA 

MRS. MAURICE P. FREEDLANDER 

JAMES O'C. GENTRY 

JOHN R. HARGROVE 



STANFORD II OFF 
MARTIN D.JENKINS 
CLARENCE W. MILES 
EDWARD T. MILLER 
CHARLES MINDEL 
JOHN W. MITCHELL 
E. PHILLIP SAYRE 
ALFRED L. SCANLAN 
L. MERCER SMITH 
MELVIN J. SYKES 
FURMAN L. TEMPLETON 
WILLIAM C. WALSH 



JOHN C. BROOKS 
Executive Director 

KALMAN R. IIETTLEMAN 
Assistant to the Executive Director 

* * * * * X * * 



William Prescott Allen (Resigned January 5 S 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. (Resigned May IS 3 1966) 
Walter R. Haile (Resigned December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams (Resigned September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. (Resigned August 2 y 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. (Resigned July 12 3 1966) 



******** 

700 Mercantile Trust Building 
Baltimore, Maryland 21202 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 
COMMITTEES 



COMMITTEE ON ELECTIVE FRANCHISE 
AND DECLARATION OF RIGHTS 

James O'C. Gentry, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
July 12, 1966) 
Charles Delia 
Leah S. Freedlander 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Stanford Hoff 
John W. Mitchell 
(appointed on November 9, 1966) 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lewis D. Asper, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON THE EXECUTIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Charles Mindel 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Furman L. Temple ton 

Garrett Power, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 
(served as Chairman until 
July 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

Harry Bard, Chairman 

Charles Delia 

Edward T. Miller 

Charles Mindel 

Alfred L. Scanlan 

John H. Michener, Reporter 

(appointed on September 12, 1966) 



Martin D. Jenkins 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William C. Walsh 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
Alexander Harvey, II 

(served as Reporter until 
September 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 
DEPARTMENT 

Robert J. Martineau, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
August 2, 1966) 
Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Clarence W. Miles 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lawrence F. Rodowsky, Reporter 



Richard W. Case 
(served until June 6, 
William J. McWilliams 



1966) 



(served as 
September 

Ridgely P. 

(served as 
September 
August 2, 

George L. 



Chairman until 
10, 1965) 
Melvin, Jr. 
Chairman from 
10, 1965 to 
1966) 
Russell , 



(served until July 
E. Phillip Sayre 
(served until June 
L. Mercer Smith 
(served until June 
William C. Walsh 
(served until June 



Jr. 
12, 

6, 

6, 

6, 



1966) 
1966) 
1966 
1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STATE FINANCE 
AND TAXATION 



COMMITTEE ON MISCELLANEOUS 
PROVISIONS 



Richard W. Case, Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Stanford Hoff 

Martin D. Jenkins 

L. Mercer Smith 

Stephen H. Sachs, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe, Chairman 

Leah S. Freedlander 

James O'C. Gentry 

Furman L. Temple ton 

Lewis A. Noonberg, Reporter 

(appointed February 26, 1966) 



Harry Bard 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Charles Mindel 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON POLITICAL 
SUBDIVISIONS AND LOCAL 
LEGISLATION 

Hal C. B. Clagett, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 

December 2, 1965) 
Franklin L. Burdette 
Leah S. Freedlander 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served as Chairman until 

December 2, 1965) 
L. Mercer Smith 
John B. Howard, Reporter 
(appointed on May 12, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5,1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 1966 

to December 20, 1966) 
Edward T. Miller 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Frank A. DeCosta, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 22, 19 66) 



COMMITTEE ON STYLE 

Franklin L. Burdette , Chairman 

E. Dale Adkins , Jr. 

Harry Bard 

Richard W. Case 

Martin D. Jenkins 

Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 



E. Dale Adkins, Jr. 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 1966 to 

December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 
(served until September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 
(served until August 2, 1966) 
Furman L. Templeton 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
John Martin Jones, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 23, 1966) 



Calhoun Bond 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON CONVENTION PROCEDURES 

Alfred L. Scanlan, Chairman 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

James O'C. Gentry 

Robert J. Martineau 

Edward T. Miller 

John W. Mitchell 

(appointed on November 9, 1966) 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Eugene Pitrof, Reporter 



Franklin L. Burdette 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Charles Delia 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Stanford Hoff 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Clarence W. Miles 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

George L. Russell, Jr. 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



1 

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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



3 Meeting of the Constitutional Convention 

* Commission held on Friday, October 14, 1966, at 
5 9:30 a.m., at John Holiday Room, Holiday Inn, 

9 Bait imore , Maryland . 

7 PRESENT: 

° H. Vernon Eney , Esquire, 

Chairman of the Commission 

* Honorable E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Member 
Calhoun Bond, Esquire, Member 

*° Mrs. Elsbeth Levy.Bothe, Member 

Dr. Franklin L. Burdette, Member 
1 Richard W. Case, Esquire, Member 

Hal C. B. Clagett, Esquire, Member 

Charles Delia, Esquire, Member 

Mrs. Maurice P. (Leah S.) Freed lander, Member 
** James 'Conor Gentry, Esquire, Member 

Walter R. Haile, Esquire, Member 
" John R. Hargrove, Esquire, Member 

Stanford Hoff, Esquire, Member 
*« Dr. Martin D. Jenkins, Member 

Honorable William Preston Lane, Jr., Member 
1° Robert J. Martineau, Esquire, Member 

Edward T. Miller, Esquire, Member 
^ Charles Mindel, Esquire, Member 

John W. Mitchell, Esquire, Member 
18 Mr. E. Phillip Sayre , Member 

Alfred L. Scanlan, Esquire, Member 
*■* Melvin J. Sykes , Esquire, Member 



20 Reported by: 
C. J. Hunt 

and 
W. P. Banister 



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1 ALSO PPxESENT: 

2 John C. Brooks, Esquire, Executive Director 

Mrs. Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 

3 Stephen H. Sachs, Reporter 

Dr. John H. Michener, Research Assistant 

4 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Because of the lateness of the 

6 hour, I think we had better go ahead without waiting for 

7 the other Members . 

8 We circulated just the day prior to the last 

9 meeting the July minutes. We did not act on them at that 

10 meeting because you had not had the chance to read them. 

11 Are there any additions or corrections of those minutes? 

12 if not, they will stand approved as circulated. 

13 The minutes of the August meeting were in the 

14 folder handed to you this morning. We have not had the 

15 chance to read them, and we will not act on them now. 

16 i do hope to act on them before the conclusion of this 

17 session. If you possibly can, will you please look them 

18 over at some interval during the sessions today or tomor- 

19 row? 

20 The Secretary is not here. John, do you have 

21 anything to report? 

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1 MR. BROOKS: Concerning arrangements, today 

2 at lunch we are supposed to have lunch in here at the 

3 round tables over on the side. This evening's dinner will 

* be in one of the dining halls upstairs. Tomorrow, lunch 

5 will be a buffet up on the rooftop, and for those who 

6 indicated they would like lunch or dinner, rather, Satur- 

7 day night, tomorrow night, we will have an ala carte 

8 arrangement in the Flamingo Room, which is the main din- 

• . ing room on the first floor, and there you might sign your 
bill, if you are staying here, put your room number; if 

11 not, if you will just put Constitutional Convention Com- 

12 mission. They are supposed to accept that without any 
** delay or haggling. I hope so. 

" Concerning parking, some of you have parking 

15 tickets to be validated. You might put your names on the 
*6 back of those, and then we can collect them and while we 
11 are meeting, go ahead and get them all validated and 

returned to you. If you have any problems while staying 
here, let me know. We have one of the managers or assis- 
tant managers upstairs specifically assigned to this 



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** group to help resolve any problems that might arise. 



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1 That is all I have. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: The Commission continues to be 

3 plagued by lack of money, lack of personnel and lack of 
* time and perhaps the last is the most critical of all. 

5 we are now about three and a half months behind the 

6 schedule that we set for ourselves last February. Much 

7 more important than that is that we are so close to the 

8 time when we must have our Report completed that we can 

9 accomplish it only by extraordinary effort. 

*■" The volume of the Commission's work, as all 

of you know, has far exceeded anything that we anticipated 
and the most urgent need at the moment is for additional 
** professional help in trying to pull together in proper 
** form the various Committee Reports and memorandum to be 
*5 excluded in the Final Report of the Commission. 

We have not yet tried to work out, and I haven' 
1' suggested to the Commission as yet, any procedure for 
*® the circulation of the Final Report and its approval by 
** the Commission. I think it is quite obvious from the 

limited time left to us that we cannot possibly hope to 



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21 conclude our consideration of the individual Con-nit tee 



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1 Reports and the draft of the Constitution and the draft 

2 of the Report by having simply the regular Commission 

3 meetings in November and December. We will probably, 

4 therefore, have to work out some procedure under which the 

5 draft of the Report can be circulated to the Commission 

6 Members, and perhaps have some special sessions to con- 

7 sider only the language of the Report itself. We are 

8 not attempting to complete the work book by January. I 

9 think that would be utterly impossible. John and 1 

10 have, interviewed some people that we think have the pro- 

11 fessional qualifications to assist in the editorial 

12 phase of the work. It is a problem of whether we can 

13 get sufficient funds, and whether these people can get 

14 sufficient leave of absence to assist us. We hope to be 

15 able to work this out inside the next week or ten days. 

16 In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate 
IV if all the Members of the Commission between now and our 

18 next meeting, which as you know, is Monday and Tuesday 

19 the week after next, that is, the 24th and 25th, be 

20 giving some thought to the problem of the circulation of 

21 the Report and agreement on it . I don't think there is 



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* going to be time for Members to prepare dissenting re- 

* ports, if there should be any necessity for such, and 

3 I don't know that there is and would hope that there is 

4 not, but I have no doubt that there will be positions 

5 or final recommendations taken in the Report as to which 
" various Members will feel strongly enough that they will 
• want to note their dissent, at least on that particular 

matter. 
9 Thinking about how this could be best accom- 

plished, one thought that has occurred to me that is 

used in other instances would be to have in effect foot- 

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note dissents, where a particular statement or recommenda- 

^ tion is made in the Report, and any Member or Members 

" desiring to indicate their dissent therefrom, without 

*■* the necessity of spelling out all the reasons for it 

simply do it in the footnote. You just put a footnote 

^ and say, Messrs. So-and-So, or Mrs. So-and-So, dissent 

^• 8 or have a different view. 
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There may, of course, be other methods, and 
there may be better methods. There may be some matters 
on which Members or a group of Members feel strongly and 



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1 feel that it is urgent that their views be expressed. 

2 I would hope this was not simply because I hope that the 

3 Report itself, regardless of the recommendation made in 

* the Report on particular issues, would state the pros and 

5 cons to the extent that it is possible to do so fully, 

6 so that the views of dissenting Members would appear, 

7 perhaps not labeled with their names but appear in the 

8 statement of the pros and cons on the question. 

9 This also becomes a question of mechanics and 
situations. A little over a year ago when John and I 

H first tried to make up a budget for the Commission, we 

*•* had nothing to go by, and in estimating an item for print- 

13 ing of the Report, we estimated that the Report would be 

14 about 150 pages, and frankly, this was a figure that 

15 W as almost just picked out of the air. It was based on 

16 some experience that I had had on other commissions and 

17 some review of reports of other commissions, but since 

18 we had no report of a commission like this to go on, 

19 and since the nature of our Report has sort of evolved 
in our own thinking over the past year, the estimate wasn't 
very accurate. As of the present time, it seems to me 



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well nigh impossible to keep the Report down to 150 
pages, and my guess is that, as of now, that the Report 
will be probably twice that long. 

This, too, poses a problem, because if you 
get the Reports too long, then it becomes necessary to 
prepare a summary of the Report for distribution, and 
this is still another problem. I would hope that the 
Report could be kept to a maximum of 200 pages, but in 
view of the fact that it is our function to state both 
sides of the question, it seems to me this is going to be 
exceedingly difficult to do. 

One of the practical problems, and this, too, 
is something you can be thinking about that will have 
to be resolved, is whether this Report should include a 
reprint of the existing Constitution. Nov;, as you know, 
in fine print, and without annotations, the existing 
Constitution, including the Amendments that are on the 
ballot in November, is roughly 100 pages, 98, I think; 
and I would hope our Report is not in type that small, 
so that this one item alone, you see, could add consider- 
able bulk to the Report, and it is a decision that the 



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1 Commission will have to make, and I would like you to 

2 be thinking about it. 

3 Also, I think it is quite obvious that from 

4 the materials that we have accumulated and that the Com- 

5 mission has had in the hearings, that the work book will 

6 not be a work book. It will be work books, and this is 
V one of the reasons why it is just simply not possible to 

8 contemplate having this published by the end of this 

9 year, or the middle of January. 

10 Cur present target on that would be to corn- 
el plete that work by spring, April or May first, somewhere 

in there. That, of course, as you know, will be primarily 

13 an editing job. It will be pulling together the research 

14 memoranda and digesting testimony and other information, 

15 original source information that we have. 

16 V7e are not under quite the same pressure on 

17 that, but with the Legislature being in session the first 

18 of the year, and it probably being necessary for this 

19 Commission to appear before the Legislature in order to 
discuss and present the bill that the next Legislature 



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1 contemplate that its activities are going to cease on 

2 January 19. 

3 In that connection, and thinking ahead a bit, 
* I wish also that the Members of the Commission would 

5 be giving thought to the practical problems with which 

6 we are confronted here. One of the immediate problems 

7 and one of the reasons we have the Report of the Committee 

8 on Convention Procedures on the agenda this week is the 

9 question of whether the bill providing for the Conven- 
tion next year should be submitted to the Legislative 

H Council, or whether it would be desirable to have the 

bill presented at the first session, or the first day of 

13 the session of the new Legislature. 

14 This poses a practical problem because, while 

15 offhand one would think it certainly would be desirable 

16 to present it to the Legislative Council, it must be kept 

17 in mind that the Legislative Council is a sort of a lame 

18 duck council. It is the remnant of the unapportioned 
Legislature and the Legislature that takes office next 
January, the apportioned Legislature, will be somewhat 



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I suggest this to you now simply so that you 
can be thinking about it between now and the time the 
Report of that Committee comes before you. 

Most of the Committee Reports are in pretty 

good condition. V7e are seriously lagging on at least 

of 
one and perhaps two. This is partly because/the nature 

of the problem. The problems with which we are confronted 

on the matter of political subdivisions are of great 

importance, great magnitude and are trailblazing, and 

for that reason we have put the Report of that Committee, 

which still involves policy considerations, rather than 

actual language, at the end of the session, to take it 

up on Sunday. I hope that we will be able to complete 

all our other Reports so that only that Report will 

be open for discussion on Sunday morning. We then hope 

that that Committee will be able to come back to the 

Commission on the 24th, with a draft embodying precise 

language . 



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I hope that we will be able to conclude today 


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the first 


three Reports, the Second Report of the Com- 


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mittee on 


Finance and Taxation, the Report of the Com- 




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mittee on Elective Franchise, and the Report of the 
Committee on Convention Procedures, and that we will 
perhaps be able also to take up the Committee on Judiciary 
If not, that would move ahead tomorrow morning. 

I think we can complete our consideration of 
all Reports if we adhere to the rules of debate, which 
were adopted at the suggestion of one of the Commission 
Members, or several of them last meeting, and which I 
circulated to you. 

May I suggest to you that while we will follow 
the same rule as to reconsiderations that we have hereto- 
fore followed, we are too far along to be reconsidering 
any matters heretofore acted upon, unless they are of 
really vital importance, and as heretofore, a Committee 
desiring reconsideration will be permitted to do so if the 
motion is approved by the Commission and on motion of a 
Member, approved by the Commission we can reconsider. 
Each of these will be necessarily without debate. 

The rules of debate on motions are not intended 
to apply to questions, and therefore we will follow our 
usual procedure in the presentation of the Report. The 



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Committee chairman will present the Report, and then we 
will ask for questions and comments . I am not attempt- 
ing to limit Members to one question or to be heard at 
one time on questions or to three minutes or to anything 
of the sort. I ask only that you make your questions 
pertinent to the point and your comments very brief. 
However , when a matter is one which is to be acted upon 
by the Commission, I would prefer that the person desir- 
ing to have it acted on make the motion promptly. If it 
is seconded, it will then be subject to the rules of 
debate, and because I have difficulty following the time 
closely on a wristwatch, I have brought my large old- 
fashioned watch so that I can try to keep time on it. 

Are there any questions as to our procedures 
or accommodations or anything else? Excuse me, Dick, 
before I forget it. 

I will adhere to what I promised you at the las 
meeting. There will be a session this morning, this 
afternoon and this evening. V7e will not go beyond 9:30 
on the evening session. There will be a session tomor- 
row morning and tomorrow afternoon. There will be no 



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session tomorrow evening, and there will be a session 




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Sunday morning, and we will try to adjourn promptly at 




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12 noon on Sunday. 




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DR. JENKINS: Beginning at what time Sunday 




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morning? 




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THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to begin at 8:30 




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on each of them, but I am afraid that that is too early, 




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because so many are coming in. Is there any reason we 




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cannot begin both Saturday and Sunday sessions at 9? 




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DR. JENKINS: Schedule them at 8:30 a.m. and 




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begin at 9. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: We have been pretty fortunate 




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in the scheduling of our meetings, at all except the 




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first day. We have started within a few minutes. I 




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would rather schedule it for a time and ask people to be 




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there. Is there any objection to having Saturday's and 




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Sunday's meetings at 9 o'clock? All right. That is what 




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we will do. Any further question? 




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MR. CASE: I have this question, Mr. Chairman, 




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which is really not a question. It is more a statement. 




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I am disturbed about the agenda, although I am fully 






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cognizant of the fact that the Chairman has the absolute 
right to set the agenda, but I have consistently stated 
and stated for the record in Easton that I was particular- 
ly interested in the Report of Mrs. Bothe's Committee 
on Miscellaneous Provisions. I also stated for the record 
I believe, at the last meeting, that I could not be here 
tomorrow or Sunday, although I could possibly be here 
tomorrow morning. I note from the prepared agenda that 
Mrs. Bothe's Report is not going to be brought up until 
tomorrow afternoon, when it is absolutely impossible that 
I be here, and for these reasons I would request, and 
again let me say with the full realization that the 
Chairman has the absolute right to set the agenda, but I 
would request that the Report on Miscellaneous Provisions 
be brought up sometime during either today or tomorrow 
morning. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think we can work that out, 
Dick. 

Any further questions or comments? All right, 
then, the next meeting, as you know, is Monday and Tues- 
day, October 24 and 25. Tentatively we have been planning 



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to hold this meeting at the Brov;n Estate in Harford 
County. We will advise you about this. John has checked 
and the accommodations seem to be or will be by that time, 
sufficient and suitable. That will be a two-day meeting. 

If there are no further questions, then we 
will proceed to a consideration of the Second Report of 
the Committee on State Finance and Taxation. 

Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: In order to conserve time, Mr. 
Chairman, I am not going to attempt to repeat or even 
summarize for that matter the background material which 
underlies this particular Report. Suffice it to say that 
our State is perhaps as well-known in the governmental 
field for a strong executive type budget provision in 
its Constitution as it is known for anything else, and 
this has had a rather interesting history, which is traced 
in the Report, and I should merely say that prior to 
1916, Maryland, like most of the other States in the 
country, dealt with the method by which monies were ex- 
pended from the Treasury on almost a piecemeal basis. 
If the Governor needed appropriation for a given depart- 



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1 merit, he would sit down with the department heads, figure 

2 out how much they needed, and then he would take that 

3 matter to the Legislature as a subject and would get an 
* appropriation from them, based on whatever he could get 

5 out of them for that particular thing. 

6 In 1916, a great revolution took place in 

7 this State, and because it was in that year that the so- 

8 called Budget Amendment was adopted as a result of a 
: reform commission's work that established one of the 

first, if not the first truly strong executive budgets 
H in the country, and with slight modifications, but impor- 
tant modifications, this system has continued from that 
time . 
*' In the course of the work that our Committee 

15 did in this particular subject, I had occasion to have a 

16 very interesting conversation with Dr. Clark Alberg, 
1? who was the former Budget Director of the State of New 
*8 York and is now the Executive Vice-president of Syracuse 
19 University, who I knew in other connections, and Dr. Alberg 

has told me, and I just cite him as an example, that 
the method of doing things here in Maryland budgetwise 



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stands very high on the list of States throughout the 
country. Of course, I have learned this from our own 
budget people, but would to some extent discount what 
they say, but I think it is interesting and instructive 
to know that such a recognized authority as Clark Alberg 
would say that about the State of Maryland. 

The only significant change that the 1916 
budget bill has had was a change brought about by the 
Sobeloff .Commission's recommendations in 1952. Prior 
to the recommendations of the Sobeloff Commission, the 
budget and budget bill were submitted to the General 
Assembly by what we call line items. That is to say, 
each particular job or position in the State was given 
a line and an item, and there were so many lines and 
they ran literally into the thousands that nobody could 
make any sense out of the entire document as a whole, 
so the Sobeloff Commission, retaining nationally known 
consultants, recommended to the General Assembly and 
through them to the people, an amendment to the budget, 
an amendment which did away with the line item method 
of reporting and infused into the plan what is known as 



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the program type budget, which is what we have today. 
The program budget establishes amounts for programs 
and then leaves the breaking down into the myriad of 
items to the various departments involved, so that is the 
basic picture. Prior to 1916 a piecemeal hit or miss 
method of controlling the expenditures of State funds; 
after 1916, and as a result of the commission, a strong 
executive budget written into the Constitution as the 
people's safeguard as to how their money is to be spent; 
the recognition that this was a good piece of work by 
experts in the field; a further amendment in the early 
Fifties converting the line item budget to the program 
type budget. 

This, then, was the situation as we found it 
in the beginning of our consideration of the subject in 
the early summer, and this Committee has held a number 
of public hearings on this particular item, one of which 
lasted all day, the transcript of these hearings running 
into several hundreds of pages. We have interviewed the 
people that we felt were best able to assist us in deter- 
mining what, if anything, could be done to improve the 



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1 situation, and they include, of course, the budget 

2 people, our own budget people, Messrs. Rennie and Slicher; 

3 they include Mr. Benton, the Budget Director of the City 
* of Baltimore; they include Mr. John Lauber , the Budget 

5 Director of Montgomery County, whom we consider to be 

6 one of the finest local budget men in the State; other 

V consultants were interviewed. Special attention was paid 

8 to spokesmen for the Public School System, and we all 
have more to say about this at a later time because 

10 there is and does come in the material that you have 

*■* before you a point where a judgment had to be made with 

12 reference to the Public School System and its position, 

13 vis-a-vis other departments of the State Government, 

14 but I shall save the discussion with respect to those 

15 particular items until a later point in the discussion. 

16 Now, the Committee recommends in general that 

17 the strong executive type budget system be continued in 

18 this State, and it further recommends that there be 

19 certain modifications of the existing Constitution which 

20 we think will improve efficiencies and in general estab- 

21 lish a more workable and a more consistent system, and with 



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1 those general remarks;, I will now, if you will turn to Pag 

2 9 of the Report, I think, Mr. Chairman, probably it would 

3 be adequate procedure if I read and then comment very 

4 breifly on these particular Sections, and if any of you 

5 have and wish to follow the provisions of the existing 

6 Budget Amendment, it is to be found in Article III, 

7 Section 52, Subsections 1 to 15. They are on Pages 30 to 

8 34 in your red books . 

9 One other thing that I might say before getting 

10 into the general discussion of these particular provisions 

11 and that is that you must keep in mind the two words of 

12 art, which are to be found throughout these amendments. 

13 One is the word, budget. The budget is the proposal 

14 compiled by the Governor's Office, through the Budget 

15 Bureau of the various programs and amounts which are to 

16 be spent for those particular programs. It is a big 

17 book, about that thick, containing all of the various 

18 items, containing a lot of information which is not par- 

19 ticularly applicable to payouts, such as balance sheets, 

20 what business would call P and L statements, where the 

21 State stands as a matter of fiscal stance. That is the 



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budget. The budget bill is something entirely different, 
although very close to it. The budget bill is the actual 
bill that goes into, or is introduced into the General 
Assembly. It does not contain the budget message, for 
example, it does not contain a P and L statement. It 
does contain appropriations for programs, so we are going 
to be talking about two things, and don't let's get 
them confused: The budget and the budget bill. 

Very well. Section 1 is really a consolida- 
tion of Subsections 1 and 2 of Section 52, and it says, 
The General Assembly shall not appropriate any money 
out of the Treasury except by a budget bill or a supple- 
mentary appropriation bill, as hereinafter provided. 

This is declaratory and in effect a combina- 
tion of the first two Sections of Section 52 and perfects 
no change in substance in the present provisions. 

Subsection 2 says « 

MR. SCANLAN: Mr. Case, Mr. Chairman, are 
we going to go through the proposal as to individual 
Sections generally and then come back and take them up 
one at a time? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I think probably we can take 

■ them up one at a time initially, don't you, Mr. Case? 

3 MR. CASE: It makes no difference to me. 

* THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any comment, then, 

5 or question on Subsection 1? If not , proceed to Subsec- 

6 tion 2. 

7 MR. CASE: Subsection 2 says, On the third 

° Wednesday in January in each year (except in the case of 

* a newly-elected Governor, and then not later than ten 

10 days after the convening of the General Assembly) , unless 

11 such time be extended by the General Assembly, the 
Governor, shall submit to the General Assembly a budget 

** for the next ensuing fiscal year. 

" This is the same as the current provision, 

*" which was an amendment effected only two years ago to 

*•* dovetail the introduction of the budget to the General 

*' Assembly, in conformity with the requirement for 70-day 

* 8 . sessions. 

*•* Such budget shall contain a complete and 

balanced plan, by programs, of proposed expenditures and 

21 

shall also contain estimated revenues for said fiscal 



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1 year, all in such form and detail as the Governor shall 

2 determine. 

3 That sentence does contain two changes which 

4 are declaratory of existing practice, but are not found 

5 in the existing Budget Amendment. 

6 These are that there must be a balanced-plan. 

7 That means that the budget itself must show on its face 

8 that expenditures will not exceed anticipated revenues, 

9 and secondly, that the budget must be constructed by 

10 programs. I said earlier that the Sobeloff Commission 

11 recommended this, and while the General Assembly passed 

12 a bill, it only implemented a half of the Sobeloff 

13 Commission's proposal, which was that the budget bill, 

14 as distinguished from the budget, should go in by pro- 

15 grams. As a matter of practice, the budget itself goes 

16 in by programs today, but there is nothing in the Con- 

( 

17 stitution that requires it, As was recommended by the 

18 Sobeloff Commission and by our Committee, this particular 

19 provision supplies the deficiencies. 

20 The budget shall contain an estimate of all 

21 appropriations required by this Constitution or by law. 



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1 This and the next sentence I shall read to- 

2 gether. 

3 It shall show the estimated surplus or deficit 
* of revenues at the end of the preceding year. The budget 

5 shall contain such additional information as may be re- 

6 quired by law. 

7 If you will turn to Pages 11 and 12 of the 

8 Report, you will see at the bottom of Page 11 and con- 

9 tinuing on to Page 12 in indented form a great deal of 
10 what seems to be detailed material, and this material, 
H which is detailed, it doesn't seem to be, it is, is 

found in the present Constitution. It is a result of a 

13 piecemeal amendment between 1916 and '52 and specifies 

14 what the budget shall contain. Our Committee felt that 

15 many of these things were either superfluous or did not 
IS arise to constitutional dimensions, and we therefore at- 
1^ tempted to simplify the requirement of what should be in 
18 the budget from the constitutional standpoint to the last 

three sentences appearing in italics at the top of Page 
10. I should call your attention only to one thing, that 
the Committee felt that as far as specificity was con- 



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cerned , the only thing really that was mandatory was a 




2 


showing of the estimated surplus or deficits of revenue. 




3 


We felt that this should be a constitutional requirement. 




4 


Other than that, we felt that the form, the information 




5 


contained in the budget, et cetera, should be as required 




6 


by law. 




7 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? Are there any 




8 


comments? 




9 


I have a question or a matter I would like you 




10 


to comment on, Mr. Case. Your Report makes mention of 




11 


the fact that you have added in here a requirement, not in 




12 


the present Constitution, that the budget shall contain 




13 


plan 
a complete and balanced/ by programs. I take it, then, 




14 


that it would be impossible under this provision to have 




15 


a budget provide for a deficit? 




16 


MR. CASE: That is correct. 




17 


THE CHAIRMAN: And this Section taken in 




18 


conjunction with Section 4, I think, and the other Sec- 




19 


tions, would make it impossible for a budget bill to 




20 


provide for deficit financing. 




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MR. CASE: That is correct. 




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1 THE CHAIRMAN: So that even in an emergency, 

2 the State could not do as the Federal Government does, 

3 for instance, and provide deficit financing? 

4 MR. CASE: That is correct. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it would be helpful in 
v the record if you could comment on that. 

7 MR. CASE: Of course, this is traditional in 

our State. We do not today as a matter of practice 



8 



9 count on deficit financing, and as far as except for one 
occasion, I think there has never been — which is a 
H minor point at the moment -- there has never been a 
** situation where we have had deficit financing in this 

13 'State since 1916. Actually, this was possible before 

14 the Budget Amendment of 1916, and it was one of the evils 

15 that was sought to be corrected by the Goodnow Amendment 

16 and by the resulting Budget Amendment of 1916. 

1" It is one of the cornerstones of the great 

lespect which our State has in fiscal circles and our 

19 Committee definitely felt that it ought to be, if anything 

20 strengthened. 

MR. SCANLAN: How many other States have 



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1 similar cornerstones? 



2 



MR. CASE: I can't answer that. I just don't 

3 know. I am sure that New York must. Michigan, I know, 

* does, because they lost a very great deal of respect 

5 throughout the financial world by reason of their deficit 

9 financing during Soapy Williams ' regime, as I recall. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: They had a prohibition, I 

8 mean, they had a requirement of a balanced budget and a 

9 balanced budget bill in Michigan in the Constitution. 
*0 How was he able to have any deficit financing? 

11 MR. CASE: They didn't have it. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: I was asking the States that do 

13 MR. CASE: I was saying they did not. 

14 MR. SCANLAN: Does New York have a similar 
provision? 



16 
17 



MR. CASE: I really don't know. I don't think 
so . 

1® MR. SCANLAN: Can you give me any estimate of 

19 the total of 50 States, how many have similar? Would 
you say it was very unique? 

MR. CASE: I can't answer that. I really 



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^ don't know. It was such a fundamental thing to us that 

^ we didn't make any research on it. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: I am not disputing this might be ^ 

* good thing. I just wanted to get some picture of what 

5 the situation is in the country generally. 

6 MR. CASE: I think when it started, it was 

• unique, and it probably has been copied. 

° MR. SCANLAN: I have some vague feeling that 

9 Virginia has provisions something like this, and at times 
when it was criticized, that it has resulted in failure 
in recent days to appropriate sufficient money for schools 
and mental health, that sort of thing. If you don't 
*" know, you don f t know. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

15 MR. GENTRY: Over recent years there has been 
*° considerable criticism of the great inaccuracies of the 
■^ Controller in estimating surplus. Is this the same 

^• 8 estimate you are calling for here? 

MR. CASE: Yes, Mr. Gentry. The criticism 
has been with the people, the method by which the esti- 
mates have been made by, not by the fact that an estimate 



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should be made. We got considerable static on that 


2 


point in hearings before our Committee , but estimates 


3 


can be as good as they can be bad, depending on who makes 


4 


them, and the methodology they use. 


5 


THE CHAIRMAN: The estimates are not made 


6 


just by the Comptroller, but by a Board of Estimates, are 


7 


they not? 


8 


MR. CASE: They are today. It is an executive 


9 


function . 


10 


THE CHAIRMAN: That is something created by 


11 


statute? 


12 


MR. CASE: That is right. 


13 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions or com- 


14 


ments? 


15 


Mr. Haile? 


16 


MR. HAILE: Mr. Chairman, a question: Sub- 


17 


section 2 says that such budget shall contain a complete 


18 


plan of proposed expenditures. The question is, does 


19 


that include expenditures for capital projects? 


20 


MR. CASE: It does not. 


21 


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receipts for capital projects? 




2 


MR. CASE: This does not deal with the bond 




3 


issues . 




4 


MR. HAILE: Sometimes it deals with road 




5 


projects . 




6 


MR. CASE: It deals with any expenditures of 




7 


general fund revenues no matter what it may be used for. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 




9 


I have one question. I assume the parenthetica 


1 


10 


phrase in the second, third and fourth lines are phrased 




11 


in that manner because of the fact that you might not 




12 


perhaps have the session begin on the third Wednesday in 




13 


January? 




14 


MR. CASE: This is subject to any change that 




15 


the Commission desires to make. 




16 


THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder if it would be desir- 




17 


able-- I take it, the budget is to be only at a regular 




18 


session, and I wonder then if it would be desirable to 




19 


say in that parenthesis, then not later than ten days 




20 


after the convening of the General Assembly in regular 




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session . 






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MR. CASE: You mean add the words, in regular 



THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 



MR. CASE: That would be perfectly all right. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Would there be any objection? 

MR. CASE: No, sir. 

THE CHAIRMAN: All right, then we will add 
those words . 

Any further questions on this Section? If 
not, we will move on to Subsection 3. 

MR. CASE: Now, as to Subsection 3 -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: As you start to comment on 
each Section, can you give the page? 

MR. CASE: Yes, this is Page 13; also if one 
wants to look at the entire Article as redrafted, it 
will be found in the back of the Report in Appendix A 
through E . 

Section 3: The estimates of appropriations 
for the legislative department, as required by law, cer- 
tified by the presiding officer of eachhouse, for the 
judiciary, as required by lav;, certified by the chief judge 



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of the Superior Court, and for State support to local 
school systems, as required by law, shall be transmitted 
to the Governor, in such form and at such times as he 
shall direct, and shall be included in the budget without 
revision . 

Now, we have been talking up to now about the 
advent and perpetuation of the strong executive type 
budget, but it must be borne in mind that we also have a 
countervailing principle in our constitutional framework 
which is known nebulously as separation of powers , and 
it has long been the rule in this State that there were, 
for these reasons, certain areas which, even the Governor, 
could not change when budget items came to him for sub- 
mission to the General Assembly from departments of the 
State. 

I think there would be no real quarrel with 
the idea that the legislative budget and the judiciary 
budget should fall into this category. Indeed, that 
has been the case since the Budget Amendment of 1916, 
and our Committee recommends no change in that particular 
area. However, the 1916 Amendment included another 



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feature which was novel at that time, and I think I can 
say with some degree of assurance that it is not the 
rule in a great many States that the mandated items, 
mandated budget items dealing with public school systems 
should not be subject to revision by the Governor. 

I will have to give you some background now 
as how the school system in the State is financed. 

For many years, and up to very recent time, we 
had what we called a principle of equalization in this 
State. By that I mean to say that the General Assembly 
would -- let's start first -- the State Board of Educa- 
tion would establish a minimum standard of education in 
terms of dollars to be spent in each County. The General 
Assembly would make certain specific grants and require 
each County to levy a certain amount -- it varied from 
year to year « on the tax base, and if the amounts 
granted by the General Assembly, plus the amounts which 
were raised by the local levy did not equate to the 
minimum program, as established by law, then the State 
would make up the difference, through general fund 
appropriation, and this was all required by law. 



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1 A few years ago, a couple of years ago, this 

2 was changed somewhat, but the principle that 1 have just 

3 enunciated remains essentially the same. Today the law 
* is , as established by the Legislature, that there shall 

5 be spent in each of the Counties a minimum of $340 per 

6 student per year. The funds are raised, again by local 

7 contributions and by State grants, and this is the result 

8 of a very complex formula which is described generally 

9 in our Report, and I don't think it is necessary to go 
into all of that here, but suffice it to say that the 

H statutes establish the amount of money which should be 

1* paid by the State to the local political subdivisions 

13 for various things, and if you will look at, beginning 

1* at Pages 16 and 17, you will see these various things that 

15 the Legislature has said shall be paid for in addition to, 

16 or folded in with the general program, and what this is, 
1™ in the language of the educators is the basic or minimum 
1® State program, and the basic or minimum State program, 

again I want to emphasize, is established by the Legis- 
lature through actual acts saying exactly what they 



10 



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* to each. 

2 Now, to fund this, I come back now to the 

3 $340, to fund this, bear in mind you have got to have 

* $340 timss the number of students in each County, so the 
5 variable is the number of students. You find out just 
° how many students there are in each County, and this re- 
' quired a judgment to be made by the State Department of 
° Education, so that we will take Prince Georges County, 
' just as an example. If there were 10,000 students in 

10 Prince Georges County, then the minimum program would 

be $3,400,000 for that particular County, which would be 
State guaranteed. Some of that money has to be raised 
locally, as stated in the text, but that is the State 
" guarantee that there will be that much money going into 
** Prince Georges County, and if it can't be raised locally 
-*-" through the real estate tax and so on, then the State 
*' is going to put up the difference. Now, what happens is 

this: That in the fall of the year, the State Department 
-"-^ of Education determines what the State minimum program 

is to be or will be in each of the political subdivisions, 
and when that is determined, the people in the State 

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1 Department of Education discuss with the Budget Director 

2 their findings. Our Committee found that there was a 

3 genuine give and take between the two, but once a judg- 

4 ment is made as to what the budget shall be and it is 

5 fixed, then that is it, and when that budget gets to the 

6 Governor, by constitutional mandate, he cannot change it. 

7 It must go in that amount, and in that form to the 

8 General Assembly. This is not to say that the Governor 

9 has no control over any part of the budget for the State 

10 Public School System. He does. He has complete authority 

11 over all things that you might term administrative, such 

12 as Dr. Sensenbaugh's salary or the salary of his secre- 

13 tary, or the people in the head office. There are many 

14 other things that the State Department of Education 

15 does which are programs outside of actually instructing 

16 students in the local school systems, and all of these 

17 programs are subject to revision, just like any other 

18 department's programs are subject to revision by the 

19 Governor, but with respect to teaching in the public 

20 schools, there is no chance, there is no availability 

21 or room for the Governor to move . 



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Now, this quite obviously, the question was 
before our Committee, whether or not this should be 
changed. It was argued on the one hand that to leave it 
as we found it would, in effect, recognize a fourth 
branch of the State Government, because it would equate 
it with the Judiciary and the Legislative as far as the 
Executive budget was concerned. On the other hand, it 
was argued with a great deal of heat, and some light, thou 
not as much light as heat, that this provision was the 
bulwark of the State's independent educational system and 
that it was the one thing which kept politics out of the 
school system. It prevented the Legislature from play- 
ing politics with the school system. It was the one 
shining crown in the firmament of our educational laws 
which was known throughout the length and breadth of 
this country, and to tamper with it would be great heresy 
indeed . 

Actually, our Committee decided that the pro- 
tection afforded is a protection really of one year, 
because the General Assembly can always change the laws 
upon which these budgets are based, so that what you are 



& h 



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1 really doing here is protecting the system for one year 

2 and indeed it seemed that the planning would admit that 

3 this protection would be a sound thing and this, coupled 
* with the really great fervor that school people use in 

5 embracing this Section, plus the fact that we were 
" assured by the people in the Budget Department that it 
? has worked well and as a practical matter necessarily 

® ' would have to work well because of the Governor's control 
^ of other parts of the State school budget, led this 
*® Committee to the judgment that the present situation 

11 should be continued in principle. 

12 There is a modification in language. There 

13 is a list of Attorney General's opinions which carve out 

14 f this blanket prohibition that the Governor works on 

15 items which are not mandated items. We have discussed 

16 those Attorney General's opinions in our Report, but 
1" suffice it to say, we felt that the language of the 
1® prohibition should be altered slightly to conform to 

actually what is dona today. The present provision of 
the Constitution says, quote, and I am reading at Page 
14 of the material indented, And for the public schools; 



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1 that is all it says. Our new language says, And for 

2 State support to local school systems, as required by 

3 law. 

* We think this is more meaningful, a more 

5 accurate description of what happens, and we can say that 

6 this was tested on all of the school people, who found 

7 it perfectly acceptable. I won't say desirable because 

8 they are opposed to any change, but they found, after a 

9 great deal of work and including the employment of out- 
10 side counsel, I might say, they have given us a judgment 
H that this language meets with their acceptance, so that, 

12 then, Mr. Chairman, is the judgment of this Committee. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

14 Mr. Gentry? 

15 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Case, you mentioned that the 

16 present system offers only a one-year protection and the 

17 Legislature can change. Are you referring to the $340 

18 figure, that is what they can change? 

19 MR. CASE: Yes, or they can take things out of 
the program or put them into the program. In other 
words, if you will note here, Mr. Gentry, for example, 



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1 at the bottom of Page 16, handicapped children. That is 

2 a program which says, in effect, that the State shall, 

3 through the local School Board, shall pay X-number of 

4 dollars. I think it is $800 a year for the education of 

5 handicapped children who qualify. Now, they can raise 

6 that if they want to, a thousand or 1500, or they can 

7 eliminate it altogether, by statute. 

8 MR. SCANLAN: How many other States have a 

9 provision in their Constitution which would prohibit or 
would make it mandatory on a governor of a sovereign 

H state to accept the school system's budget as certified 

*2 to him by the people most interested in it, namely those 

13 administering the school system? 

14 MR. CASE: Again, Al, I can't say. We didn't 

15 make a compendium of other States. I think it is fair 

16 to say there are few, there are but few. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: Very few? 

18 MR. CASE: Yes. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: What was the answer to the pro- 
ponents, those who wanted to keep this language or the 



10 



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1 the point you made to this Commission that in effect 

2 it is a constitutional provision that protects just the 

3 budget for one year? 

4 MR. CASE: They said in effect that this is 

5 exactly what they needed and had to have. 

6 MR. SCANLAN: I know, but why? 

7 MR. CASE: Well, there are a number of reasons 

8 but I can capsule them all by saying to avoid political 

9 interference in school system, to avoid what they fear 

10 to be political coercion. 

11 MR. SCANLAN: Aren't there other States with 

12 very fine school systems such as maybe California that 

13 don't have a provision like this? 

14 MR. CASE: Undoubtedly this is true. We were 

15 cited to a number of instances where these provisions 

16 were absent and where it was stated that the school sys- 

17 tems were riddled with politics, and this had been or this| 

18 is the cardinal point. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: But you pointed out, I believe, 

20 in your Report to the Commission that the Legislature, the 

21 representatives of the people, if they wanted to play 



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1 politics with the school system, could, in effect, 

o 

decimate it by reducing the mandated items. 
3 MR. CASE: They can in effect decimate it, 

but legislators have to be elected and school people have 



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* the curious way of being able to marshal vast and great 



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resources when it comes to legislative, throwing the spot- 



light of intelligence on a given piece of legislation. 

They, let's put it very bluntly, in terms of 
9 



political action, the school system is willing to take 
chances with the Legislature, but it feels that a 
Governor who was anti-public schools, who -- well, anti- 
public schools, could hurt them and hurt them badly. 
This is the thing. 

MR. SCANLAN: Do I detect in your remarks 



15 some suggestion that maybe your Committee has succumbed 



to this vast array of forces that they were able to 



17 

marshal on occasion? 

MR. CASE: 1 wouldn't say that at all. I 
19 



succumbed to them sometime back in the- early or late 
Forties when His Excellence, Governor William Preston 
Lane, gave me a chance to sit on a school board. 1 was 



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thoroughly brainwashed at that time. 

MR. SCANLAN: Based on your experience in 
fiscal affairs in this State and based further on your 
experiences in financing education and especially based 
on the work you have done in the work with your Committee 
and an excellent work it is, too, is it not your 
opinion that the retention of this language as you have 
it, slightly different, I concede that, the language, 
for State support of the local system, is merely just 
to preserve a symbol and nothing that really has any 
great efficacy? 

MR. CASE: Well, that is a hard question to 
answer . I think that it does preserve a symbol. 1 
will start with that. There is no question about it. 
This is a great symbol to the public school people, so 
you have to look at it from the other side. Is there 
any great damage done to the budgetary system of the 
State? Is the financial position of the State unduly 
wounded by reason of the contingency? The reason has to 
be No. 

MR. SCANLAN: If we are going to clutter up 



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this Constitution with symbols just to assuage pressure 
groups, we will have a voluminous document, indeed. 

THE CHAIRMAN: May I say we are getting into 
debate. Let's reserve that. Mr. Hoff? 

MR. HOFF: There was one further argument 
made, as I recall, that the complexities of our school 
system require planning and programming for more than a 
year ahead, and that a sudden interruption of a school 
budget or a school program, as set forth, as might take 
place where this guarantee of at least one year's con- 
tinuation would be removed, could possibly disrupt ser- 
iously the whole school system. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: I would like to ask a question. 
As I understand it under present law, which would be 
guaranteed under this Constitution until changed, a 
minimum expenditure of $340 per student must be made in 
each jurisdiction? 

MR. CASE: That is correct. 

MR. MILLER: I also understood you said, and 
I believe it is true, there has been cooperation, but 






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suppose with our new plans that we have for local self- 
government, suppose a jurisdiction refused to raise a 
reasonable amount. Would there be any safeguard but 
what the State would have to put it up, whereas another 
County or another area might raise more than the $340? 

MR. CASE: The second part of your question, 
in fact, happens. There are a number of jurisdictions 
that do raise more, but the requirement that the State 
participate in the program is pre-conditioned upon the 
local political subdivision raising its required amount. 

In other words, if they refuse to raise it, 
then they don't get any State money. 

MR„ MILLER: Is the amount they are supposed 
to raise fixed by State law? 

MR. CASE: Yes. Well, wait a minute. The 
method by which they are supposed to raise it is fixed 
by State law. 

MR. MILLER: Suppose they don't put enough tax 
on the local people? 

MR. CASE: Well, the statute provides the 
amount of tax. It specifies that. It is on Page 16. 



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If you will look on Page 16 of the Report, Congressman, 




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you will see exactly how it works. 




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MR. MILLER: I understand that that is the 




4 


way it works now, but if we have local self-government 




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and the tax is not levied, would the State under this 




6 


provision still have to go ahead and pay it? 




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MR. CASE: No, sir. As I understand it, this 




8 


is a State mandated item. It tells the local political 




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subdivision that it has to raise an amount equal to 




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1.228 per cent of the sum of its adjusted assessed valu- 




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ation on real property and its total net taxable ordinary 




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income. Now, it has to raise that amount. If it doesn't 




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raise it, it is out of the program and won't get any State 


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money at all. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander? 




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MR'. MILLER: Even if the budget called for it, 




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it wouldn't get it? 




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MR. CASE: That is correct. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander? 




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MRS. FREEDLANDER: I guess I would be classi- 




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fied in that category that Mr. Case spoke about, the 






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1 great groups filled with fervor for education, but I 

2 differ with him. I am boring from within. I would 

3 like to state in answer to Mr. Scanlan that you have 24 

4 local school systems, local in quotation marks. They say 

5 they are local, but they are greatly dependent upon 

6 State financing. If you did not have such a provision 
V and anyone got angry about something happening on the 

8 local level, that portion of the State delegation would 

9 then say, Let's cut it, especially since the schools 

10 are, I think, the biggest spender. In expenditures, 

11 the schools spend the most, and they would be most 

12 vulnerable to cuts where there is such a need for it. 

13 Secondly, State aid also implies State stan- 

14 dards, which means that we are raising certain of our 

15 Counties to a level which the children should get, but 

16 which they may not get if you did not have these mandated 

17 provisions. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question or comment' 

19 Mr. Sykes? 

20 MR # SYKES: Would the expenditures for teachers 

21 retirement system which are now among the mandated items 



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* be included in your language, State support to local 

^ school systems? 

3 MR. CASE: As we construe it, Mr. Sykes , we 

4 think it would . 

5 MR. SYKES: I would assume that was the in- 
tention? 

7 MR. CASE: It is part of the system of 

*> teachers, et cetera, I think the notes would show that. 
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I would like to make a comment, 

that the Finance Committee in making this recommendation 

12 

is in accord with the recommendation of the Miscellaneous 

^ Provisions Committee, which we passed on to them. I 

14 think we are delighted that they have acceded to our 

** recommendation and that Mr. Case's respect for tradition 

■*■" is being perpetuated. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question or comment" 

18 MR. CASE: We find it hard to disagree with 

19 the Miscellaneous Provisions Committee. 

MRS. BOTHE: I hope you are here to agree 

with us when our Report comes up. 



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MR. CASE: Particularly in view of the charm 




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of its Chairman. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 




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MR. GENTRY: One question on the budget for 




5 


the Legislature: Explain to me how that budget is made 




6 


up. Is it made up by the current session? 




7 


MR. CASE: Yes. What happens is that the 




8 


President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House 




9 


meet with the budget people sometime early in the fall, 




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and they have a regular form. They are going to have so 




11 


many doormen and so many telephone operators and so 




12 


many charwomen, whatever it is, and it is written down 




13 


and submitted to the budget people and that is it. As 




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a practical matter, and I think it is fair to say this, 




15 


this budget is really done by the Budget Department, 




16 


so that, to use Mr. Scanlan's word, another symbol is 




17 


being preserved. It is the practical way it works. 




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MR. GENTRY: It does not need the concurrence 




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of the Assembly itself? 




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MR. CASE: No. The two presiding officers 




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sign the request, and it goes in that way. 






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THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions or comment? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Should the term, Superior Court, 
is that the court that has the responsibility for pre- 
paring the judicial amendments? 

MR. CASE: Yes. It is supposed to dovetail 
with Judiciary. I think it does. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Before we pass on, I would like 
to clarify something by asking several questions: As I 
understand Subsection 3, the budgets of the Legislative 
Department, Judiciary Department and the State support 
to local schools to be included without change by the 
Governor are only such parts of those budgets as prescribed 
by law. In other words, you couldn't by either of these 
departments increasing the salaries provided by law or 
provided for provisions required by law, require the 
Governor to include them in the budget? 

MR. CASE: I think the word, required, deserves 
emphasis here, because I misstated it myself. I said as 
provided. The word, required, makes your point abundantly 
clear, I think. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I take it, therefore, that this 



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1 phrase, State support to local school systems as required 

2 by law, would not embrace State support of higher educa- 

3 tion? 

4 MR. CASE: It does not. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: But I would take it that under 
P the provisions of Section 2, I guess it is, if the Legis- 

7 lature passed a law providing for a certain program of 

8 aid to higher education, then under Subsection 2 the 

9 Governor would have to include provision to finance that 
program in his budget under the next to last sentence of 

11 Section 2? 

** MR. CASE: He would have to put in the program. 

13 The Governor wouldhave to put in the program. The Legis- 

" lature can't think up a program and pass it by themselves, 

15 unless by supplemental appropriation act, and then they 

16 have to finance the money for it. We come to that later. 

1 7 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't mean that. I mean for 
1^ instance in 1965, the Legislature passed a bill providing 

a certain program for aid to higher education, just as it 
has for aid to local school systems. Then in preparing 



10 



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would have to include an appropriation to carry out that 
program? 

MR. CASE: He would put it in. It wouldn't be 
a mandated item because it wouldn't fall within the pro- 
vision of 3. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, but would it fall in this, 
is ray question, would it fall within the provision of the 
next to last sentence of Section 2, that the budget shall 
contain an estimate of all appropriations required by 
this Constitution or by law? 

MR. CASE: I think that is probably right. If 
the Legislature passed an act which they have never done, 
as far as I know, saying that there shall be appropriated 
from year to year out of the general funds of the State 
$10,000 for each of the State supported colleges of higher 
education -- that is what you are saying? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Or a dollar amount per student. 

MR. CASE: Or a dollar amount per student, 
then very obviously it would have to go in. 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: I wanted to say some higher 
education is included in the junior colleges. Isn't that 



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right 



* MR. CASE: I don't want to get into a decision 

not 
3 or discussion about what is and what is/higher education, 

* but I will agree with you that junior colleges are in- 

5 eluded. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question or comment? 

7 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, do you understand, 
® then, that if the General Assembly made an appropriation 

* for higher education and it then was passed on as part of 
the budget, that it would be protected from any revision 

11 by the Governor? Is that under Section 3? 

12 MR. CASE: No. Subsection 3 does not apply. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: That is the way I would read it, 
" so it would be subject to revision by the Governor in the 
15 budget. 

MR. CASE: Well, except this: That if the law, 
*' and Mr. Eney asked me this question, suppose the Lcgisla- 
*» ture passes a law authorizing and directing the Governor 
** to pay to each institution of higher education $40 times 

the number of students enrolled in that institution as of 
the first of September, the Governor has to follow the lav; 

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He can't just ignore it. I think he would go to jail if 
he d id . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Does that answer your question, 
Mr. Clagett? 

MR. GLAGETT: I believe it does. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scan Ian? 

MR. SCANLAN: Just one more question, Dick. In 
your Report you mention the fact that experience shows 
that the funds appropriated for education that have a 
high degree of reverter, overestimates, is it possible that 
the presence of the predecessor language, the guarantee 
that the budget can't be reduced for the public school 
system, is it possible that this provision of the present 
Constitution was a contributory factor toward this ten- 
dency to overappropriate or overestimate public school 
funds? 

MR. CASE: I don't think so. The reason for 
the high reversion lies in the simple fact that the Board 
of Education feels that it can always turn the money back 
if it has got an. excess, but it can't educate a youngster 
if it doesn't have enough money to do it, if it runs out 



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of money, and therefore they claim that there is some 
scientific procedures used here, and I am willing to 
admit that there are, but they admitted quite candidly 
at our hearings that they consciously overestimated. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: I just wanted to get clear, too. 
Under the current practice, there are a number of controls 
in practice that the Governor's Budget Department and 
the Governor through them actually exercise over the 
school budget? It isn't as if the Executive Department 
has no power whatsoever. 

MR. CASE: That is absolutely correct. 

MR. SYKES: Is it also true that there is 
nothing in the draft of language in the new Constitution 
that you propose which is intended in any way to curtail 
the powers that the executive is currently exercising in 
respect to the school budget? 

MR. CASE: No. It is to sharpen those powers 
and make them a little more definitive, if anything. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any "further comment? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: To answer Mr. Scanlan again, 



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1 the reversion also occurs because in the estimate of the 

2 number of pupils, the 340 remains stationary. It is the 

3 number of pupils. Baltimore City has a research depart- 

4 ment that does an annual census on how many children 

5 to be expected but all Counties do not have such research 

6 census. That is where the reversion occurs, as to the 

7 pupils, not the program. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Haile? 

9 MR. HAILE: I have a question. This says for 

10 State support to the local school system. The question 

11 is, does this include private schools as well as public? 

12 MR. CASE: It does not. 

13 MR. HAILE: Hadn't we better say local public 

14 school systems? That is the question I had. I don't 

15 require an answer at this point. I just bring it to your 

16 attention. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me suggest that it is an 

18 appropriate time to take a coffee break and maybe Mr. Case 

19 and Mr. Sachs can think about that a little. 

20 DR. JENKINS: Wouldn't that be covered as re- 

21 quired by law? 



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THE CHAIRMAN: That is part of the problem. 




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I don't know that that meets Mr. Haile's point. 




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DR. JENKINS: The law does not provide it. 




4 


THE CHAIRMAN: It might. Let's take a ten- 




5 


minute break. 




6 


(At this time a short recess was taken.) 




7 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, do you want to reply 




8 


further to Mr. Haile's question? 




9 


MR. CASE: Mr. Haile asked whether or not this 




10 


was intended to apply to purely public schools or would 




11 


private schools come within the ambit of the language? 




12 


I answered that it was intended, certainly as always to 




13 


have been used as a vehicle for financing public schools 




14 


only. However, and I must confess that for that reason, 




15 


our Committee did not consider the necessity for inserting 




16 


the word, public, between the words, local and school. 




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Since our recess, it has occurred to me that probably the 




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language as it is stated is the preferable form because 




19 


there may indeed « assuming now it has only applied to 




20 


public schools in the past -- there may indeed come a 




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time when aid to private schools will be sanctioned by the 






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courts and at that time the Legislature in its infinite 
wisdom may wish to include private schools within the 
particular financing scheme that we have here, and it 
seems to me that the use of the word, public, would pre- 
vent this, and I don't think we are ready to make that 
judgment now. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: I would like to know whether you 
are actually correct in your statement of the effect of 
this provision. As I read the provision, it deals only 
with the very limited question of whether the Governor 
has any revisory power over the budget, and I would assume 
that the reason why the Governor is to have no power over 
the public school system is that it is a public system 
and should be kept as free of political influence as pos- 
sible. There is nothing in this language as I read it 
that would prevent the Legislature, by the normal process, 
prevent the State by the normal process, from aiding 
private schools, but the question is whether there should 
be a distinction made as between public and private schools 
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Is there really any implication? 

MR. CASE: Let me make this point. There might 

* come a time when the Legislature decided that it would 

give direct State aid for the transportation of parochial 

5 school children for example, and that this should be and 
the Legislature could say this shall be included in the 
public school budget. If that were done, and it were 
passed on and accepted by the courts, they would have to 
reverse, of course, the opinion of the Court of Appeals, 
but assuming that this were the case, so transportation 
to all schools would be a part of the local basic program 
of education, this would protect the transportation of 
parochial school children, I mean that expenditure as 
well as the public schools. 
15 MR. SYKES: If the Legislature wanted to do 

x that, it could provide that appropriations should be made 

1 7 

and the Governor would be required to include that under 

Subsection 2, under the language the Chairman referred to. 

MR. CASE: It could if it wanted to set it in 

a dollar amount rather than work it in the public school 

program. 

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MR. SYKES: If the Legislature didn't do that, 
does the same reason apply to public school systems as 
applies to private school systems, to prevent the Governor 
from having the power that he otherwise would have over 
or in the appropriation procedure? That is the only 
question I asked. I think the question is a lot narrower 
than the one you put. 

MR. CASE: No question about it because the 
basic cornerstone or philosophical reason for the thing 
being to eliminate political pressures would be less 
likely to flow from the private than from the public school 
sector, so that the area is constricted. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? Any 
motion? If not, we move on, 

MR. SYKES: I would move, in light of the Answer 
to the questions and what I think is the real effect of 
limiting this Section to public schools, which is not to 
prevent State aid to private schools, I would move that 
the word, public, be inserted between the words local and 
schools and I call attention in connection to that to the 
fact that in the existing Constitution -- 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a moment. Is the motion 

seconded? 

3 MR. SAYRE: Seconded. 

4 MR. SYKES: In the existing Constitution, 

5 under Section 11, the language says, and for the public 

6 schools, as provided by lav7. Now, if we are going to 
' in effect carry forward and tidy up the present system, 

which has worked quite well, I see no reason for working 
any far-reaching changes and making an unjustifiable 
limitation on the Governor's power, which goes far beyond 
anything that has existed heretofore. I feel right strong' 
ly about the point. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

14 Mr. Sayre? 

15 MR. SAYRE: If Mr. Sykes 1 interpretation is 
correct, and I understand Mr. Case did not contradict him, 
in the use of the word, public, here, it would seem to 
me that the question is whether we want to, in effect, 

1 find as to public schools without disallowing additional 

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consideration for private schools. Therefore, I think it 

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1 if that type prohibition is desired. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Mr. Gentry? 

3 MR. GENTRY: Speaking against the motion, I 

4 would fear that to insert the word, public, would give 

5 some opportunity for those that argue, if the day conies 

6 that aid to private schools would be permissible and would 

7 be desirable, it would give some support to the fact that 

8 that is disfavored by this Constitution, by reason of the 

9 fact that the limitation here would be to private schools 
10 and give the Governor only his limited powers in that area, 
H but would allow him further powers with regard to 

12 appropriations for private school benefit. 

13 I feel as it now stands without any word in 

14 there, it would allow an interpretation to be given to 

15 this, in the event that at some future time where it is 

16 not permitted now, in the event that time should come, it 

17 would be permissible and therefore since it does no 

18 harm to leave it as is, I would feel it should be left 

19 open in this fashion. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Further debate, Mr. Clagett? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: What is the difference between 



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local and public? 




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MR. CASE: I just told Mr. Sachs I didn't think 




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it was too much. The word, local, is the word generally 




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used to define a public school system. In all candor, I 




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must answer it that way. 




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church, private or any other designation? 




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it is the word that is most often applied to the schools 




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that are maintained in the Counties and Baltimore City, 




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by the Counties and by Baltimore City. 




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art. 




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like to get the Chair's clarification of this if possible. 




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Are we voting on whether schools should be public, as 




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against the possibility of allowing public or private, 




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or are we only voting about the power of the Governor to 




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supervise the budget? 




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THE CHAIRMAN: The latter. 




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tution as it now stands to require that schools be public? 
This would not be in this Article. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, it would not be. 

MRS. BOTHE: I call the Commission's attention 
to a discussion on this subject, recognizing aid to 
private schools, which is contained in the Miscellaneous 
Provisions Committee's report on education. We recommend 
that no reference be made in the Constitution to private 
schools, not without taking a position as to whether or 
not the Legislature should appropriate funds for that 
purpose, but we felt that the Constitution was a document 
dealing with the public institutions in the State and not 
with the private, and we recommended that no reference be 
made in what is now Section 8 of the Constitution to 
private education, rejecting the proposition that this be 
d one. 

Mr. Gentry, who is on the Committee, was a 
minority view in that respect, and I would feel it consis- 
tent if the word, local school system, does mean public 
schools, and I thought it did when I read it, but if it 
doesn't mean that, I think the addition of the word , public, 



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* would be consistent with our recommendations otherwise. 

* I wonder whether it is not a moot addition. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further debate? 

* Mr. Gentry, you have already spoken. 
5 Mr. Scanlan? 

° MR. SCANLAN: I have the gravest reservations 

' about raising the local public school systems of the 
: State to the co-equal status from the point of budgetary 
equality with the Judiciary and Legislature, but I 
defer to the judgment of the Committee on that point. If 



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we are going to do that, for heaven's sake, let's keep 

12 

it as far on a category as possible by adopting the 

13 amendment using the word, public, to precede the word, 
school. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mrs. 

16 Freedlander? 

17 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I hesitate to disagree with 
Mr. Case on this question of State versus local, but I 
think of the word local as referring to a locality, as 
contrasted with the word, State, rather than local, mean- 
ing public. Furthermore, thereis independent school 



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* system in Maryland which also has local schools under 

^ independent school systems, as there is parochial school 

3 systems with local school systems. I think of local 

* as contrasted to the word, State, rather than as 

5 synonymous with the word, public. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I would think that Mr. Case is 
" right to this extent, at least, that when you use. all 

® three words, local school systems, in present day connota- 

^ tion, that this would almost certainly mean a public 

school, but I think he is also correct that it is entirely 



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11 possible that in the future, the local subdivision would 

12 

adopt a system embracing both public and private schools, 

** in which event I think his second comment would be cor- 

14 rect, that local school system might then embrace the 

**> private system. 

16 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman? 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: You have already spoken. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: I wasn't going to speak. I was 

19 

X!7 gomg to propose. 

THE CHAIRMAN: There is a motion. Do you want 

21 

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MRS. BOTHE: Yes, strike the word, local, 
and substitute, public, which is the word used in the 
present Constitution. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept that, Mr. Sykes? 

MRS. SYKES: No , s ir . I think it makes a 
difference . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further debate or discussion 
of this motion? 

MR. SYKES: May I make a last observation? It 
is not debate. I think the record ought to show that 
there is no intention in this motion to do anything which 
would indicate our feeling of the realtive weights of the 
arguments for or against State aid to private schools. The 
motion that I made was intended to have no effect on 
that problem at all, but was narrowly limited to the ques- 
tion of the powers of the Governor over the budget. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are 
you ready for the question? The question arises on the 
motion to amend Subsection 3 by inserting the word , public,! 
between the words, local and the word , school, in the 
fifth line of Subsection 3. All in favor of the motion, 



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■*■ please signify by a show of hands. 

2 MR. BrDOKS: Twelve. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Contrary? 

4 MR. BROOKS: Five. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried, 12 to 5. 
" Any further discussion of Subsection 3? 

7 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to 

8 belabor the subject. I gather my motion may not even 

9 be seconded, but I share some concern. I can understand 
10 why the Governor's hands should be tied as far as doing away 

with the other two coordinate branches of the Government, 
but I don't see a need, in spite of what the Committee 
*** says, in the Constitution for this making as Mr. Scan Ian 

14 says, of broad power in the State. I would therefore 
*° move that we strike from Section 3, beginning on Line 4, 

16 and for State support to local school systems as required 

17 by law. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

19 MR. SCANLAN: I will second the motion. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to speak further y 

Mr. Miller? 



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MR. MILLER: I think it has all been talked 
about. I just want it on the record. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are 
you ready for the question? 

MR. SAYRE: Could Mr. Miller speak about ten 
seconds longer on this? It is from the bottom line -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: His motion is to strike the 
phrase, beginning in the fifth line of Section 3, and 
for State support to public local school systems, as re- 
quired by law. Any further question? Is there any fur- 
ther debate? Are you ready for the question? All those 
in favor of the motion, signify by saying Aye, contrary, 
No. The Noes seem to have it. The Noes have it. Any 
further question on Subsection 3? If not, we move to 
Subsection 4. 

MR. CASE: Subsection 4 is very largely procedural 
and deals now with the budget bill for the first time. 
The first two sentences are virtually, are copied, as a 
matter of fact, from the first sentence of Subsection 5 
of present Section 52 and I shall read those two sentences. 
The Governor shall deliver to the presiding officer of 



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1 each house the budget and the bill for all the proposed 

2 appropriations of the budget classified and in such form 

3 and detail as he shall determine or as may be prescribed 
* by law. The presiding officer of each house shall 

5 promptly cause said bill to be introduced therein, and 

6 such bill shall be known as the budget bill. 

1 That is the way procedurally the budget bill 

8 sees the light of day in the General Assembly. 

9 The next sentence , says , The Governor may, 

*-Q before final action thereon by the General Assembly, amend 

11 or supplement the budget bill to correct an oversight, 

to provide funds contingent on passage of pending 
** legislation or to provide for an emergency. 

14 This sentence again is taken from the existing 

15 Constitution and is the authority that gives to the 

16 Governor the right to send down supplemental appropriation 
1^ bills. This is a useful tool because it ofttimes happens 
18 that programs are initiated in the General Assembly which 

will become effective on June 1 of the same year, and it 
is necessary to find funds to do this. These programs 
not being known when the budget is first assembled by the 



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* Governor, he necessarily has to in some way amend the 
■ budget to provide for these particular new programs. In 

3 addition, there are certain instances where there could 

4 be an oversight in the preparation of the initial budget 

5 and budget bill and this provision affords the opportunity 
" to correct the oversight. 

* I might say that the permission to the Governor 

° to send down supplemental appropriation bills has been 
9 criticized in the past by certain writers and commentators 
on the subject on the theory that it is in effect, a 
pork barreling kind of operation, and that late in the 
session the Governor is able to send to the General Assem- 
** bly pet schemes which legislators have worked on for 
" their own constituency , and that way votes can be obtained, 
*•* et cetera, and indeed, the Sobeloff Commission made an 
*° effort to restrict the use of the supplemental appropria- 
*™ tion bill, or the amendment really, what we are talking 
•*- 8 about , the amendment by the Governor to the budget . 
■*- 9 Our Committee discussed this with all the 

parties involved that we thought ought be talked to, and 
we found that the power in the Governor to amend ought to 



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be preserved but we did include a safeguard, which I 
will mention in a minute, that is not found in the present 
Constitution to ameliorate the objections which have been 
directed toward this particular provision. 

The fourth sentence in the Section merely des- 
cribes the amendment , it says what happens to it , such 
amendment or supplement shall be delivered to the presid- 
ing officers of both houses, and it shall thereafter be- 
come a part of such budget bill as an addition, substitute, 
or modification thereof or any item thereof, and of course, 
being part of the budget bill it must conform to the 
already announced plans of balancing, which is important, 
because if the funds stated in the budget and budget bill 
as originally sent down do not provide funds for this 
new or additional program, then this supplement must do 
so to keep the balancing system in effect. 

The last sentence in proposed Section 4 is 
new: Any such amendment shall be accompanied by a state- 
ment by the Governor explaining the reasons for each 
budget amendment. 

In the current Constitution, there is a provision 



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* permitting, and that is about all you can say for it, 

* the Governor, in the course of sending down his budget, 
*3 to send down with his budget, a budget message and of 

* course, this, as most of you know, is done. Not only is 
5 there a very detailed message, but the Governor makes a 

* State of the State speech, which is, in effect, a summariza- 

' tion of the budget. 

® We didn't include anything in our draft on this 

9 particular point because we felt that this was a preroga- 
tive of the Governor and to say in the Constitution that 
he could do it was merely declaratory of his inherent 
powers as the Chief Executive Officer of the State. When 

* 3 it comes to the supplements or amendments, we felt that 
14r here there ought to be a spotlight cast on it, because 
*** the Governor is doing something perhaps as an afterthought, 
*° and therefore, based on the underlying philosophy, if not 
*' the direct recommendation of the Sobeloff Commission, 

because we felt that their way of getting at it was not 
■^ proper, namely, to eliminate the right to amend, we 

preserved the right to amend, but required the Governor 

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to say just what he is doing so the Legislature can tell 



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* what he is doing and can act on it accordingly. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

3 Mr. Sykes? 

4 MR. SYKES: Shouldn't the statement that is 

5 required by the last sentence be a written statement so 
® it is right there in the Legislature and can be referred 
' to? I assume that is what is meant anyway . I am not 

clear. 

MR. CASE: Certainly, it would have to be a 
statement, which would be conveyed to all Members, and I 
suppose it couldn't be done other than by writing. 

MR. SYKES: He could make it at a press con- 
ference or he could tell the President of the Senate. 

MR. CASE: This means a statement to the General 

15 Assembly. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: It would hardly accompany the 

1 7 

amendment if it were done in a press conference. 

it 

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MR. CASE: In all candor, yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? Questions? 



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1 Do you have anything further, Mr. Sykes? 

2 MR. SYKES: No, sir. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: The next Subsection, 5. 

4 MR. CASE: We have talked up to this point 

5 about what the Governor can do and emphasized the effect 

6 of the so-called strong executive type budget, which we 

7 are dealing with here. Now, we transfer the scope of our 

8 inquiry to what the General Assembly can do once the 

9 budget bill has been introduced and is before them for 

10 passage. Section 5 deals with that subject. 

11 The General Assembly shall not amend the budget 

12 or the budget bill so as to affect (a) the estimate of 

13 revenues therein contained; (b) the appropriation of suf- 

14 ficient funds to provide for the timely payment of the 

15 interest upon and installments of principal of all indebted 

16 ness created on behalf of the State as required by Section 
IV 34 of Article 3 of the Constitution; (c) the provisions 

18 made by the laws of the State for the establishment and 

19 maintenance of a system of public schools. 

20 I call your attention to the word, public, 

21 which is why I didn't speak against in other propositions 



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1 because it dovetails. It does mean public. 

* All right. Now, getting back to this sentence, 
3 because there is one innovation in it, one innovation of 

* substance and one of language. The one of substance is 

5 to be found in the (a) on Page 23. In the present Consti- 
" tution, there is no provision which would deny to the 

* Legislature the right to amend the revenue estimates 

8 which are made by the Governor, and when Mr. Sachs and I 

* mentioned this fact to Mr. Rennie and Mr. Slicher, they 
were horrified to know that the General Assembly could 
indeed, if they took it upon themselves, perhaps could, 
amend the estimate of revenues. This is a very important 

** thing, because if you can amend the revenue estimates, 
■*•* if you could possibly amend them upward, then you could 
*"* get in programs that the Governor desired, never envisioned 
*° perhaps, and there is no telling what kind of chaos would 
1' come out of it, so we are proposing that the Governor, 
18 who has the responsibility of revising the budget and the 
responsibility of finding money to fund that budget, for 
sure has the responsibility of determining the revenue 
estimates, and we think that his estimate of revenues should 



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1 be inviolate and that is the reason for (a) . 

2 MR. SCANLAN: I have a question on that. Do 

3 any other States have in their Constitutions a prohibition 

4 on the right of the representatives of the people to raise 

5 the revenue estimates of the co-equal branch of the 

6 Government, namely the Executive? 

7 MR. CASE: To do -- 

8 MR. SCANLAN: Does any other State -- 

9 MR. CASE: — have a similar provision? 

10 MR. SCANLAN: Or similar restriction. 

11 MR. CASE: I would guess they do. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: It strikes me as highly unusual. 

13 The Governor can be wrong and the Legislature could be 

14 right . 

15 MR. CASE: But it is the responsibility of the 

16 Governor, and this is the cardinal issue, the respons ibilitjy 

17 of the Governor to do it, right or wrong. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: I guess we are getting into 

19 argument . 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 

21 MR. SYKES: Is the word , a-f-f-e-c-t, in 



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1 intends? I can see so far as revenues in the budget that 

2 the Legislature should probably not be allowed to increase 

3 them at least. I don't know that it makes that much dif- 
* ference whether it decreases them, but in any case, it 

5 is acting directly on the revenue estimates. I don't knov; 

6 enough about budgeting to know whether some other things 
? that the Legislature might be doing might be said to 

8 affect the revenue estimates. 

9 MR. CASE: You get into words and semantics 
*0 here. That word is now found in Subsection 6 of — 

11 MR. SYKES: Not in connection with the nev; 

1 thing you have added. My question is, how this integrates 

** with the existing language. 

14 MR. CASE: I thought it did. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I had the same question, not as 

16 to A but as to C , and I wondered if you could accomplish 
*■* everything you wanted by using the word , change, instead 

of affect. 
19 MR. CASE: Actually as far as C is concerned, 

that is a direct takeoff from present Subsection 6, which 

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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I know that, but my concern was 

2 whether or not the thing you mentioned in connection with 

3 the earlier Section you may have provisions by the law of 

4 the State with respect to the establishment and maintenance 

5 the system of public schools which does not provide for 

6 mandated items, and nevertheless, it is a provision of law 

7 and if you say that they can't amend the bill so as to 

8 affect it, they maybe couldn't reduce some appropriation 

9 for the schools other than a mandated item that could be 

10 said to affect the system. 

11 MR. CASE: This is only dealing with the budget 

12 and budget bill. It doesn't deal with some other law. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: That is true. I am wondering 

14 whether it would impose too great a limitation on the power 

15 of the Legislature to reduce items in the budget bill on 

16 the ground that they could be said to affect the provisions 

17 made with respect to these others. Is what you really 

18 mean, change? 

19 MR. CASE: I mean what the fellow who wrote 

20 Subsection 6 meant, I guess. 

21 MR. SYKES: You don't mean, change, in B, I 
— dert^-t— thinks — The r e. I t hink— you— do-raee n affect, but yoi 

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do mean change in A and C . 

MR. CASE: I would personally feel that the 
word, affect, having been in the Constitution and been the 
subject of at least administrative interpretation, ought 
to be the one to remain. We know what it means; maybe 
not as a purist in the English language, we know what it 
means, but we know as a practical working day matter what 
it means . 

MR. MILLER: Would the word, increase, accom- 
plish the goal instead of just say, affect, or change? 

MR. CASE: No. If you said, increase, by 
hypothesis you could decrease. 

MR. MILLER: Would there be any objection if 
they wanted to? 

MR. CASE: Absolutely. That is the heart of 
this provision, it can't be changed. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? 

Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: I wanted to make a motion. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get the questions first. 

MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, assuming for the 



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moment that a County appropriated, or made provision for 
appropriation for private schools and persuaded the 
Governor to include that in the budget bill, and then the 
Legislature wanted to regulate that amount or to prohibit 
it, it would not be able to do so, would it? 

MR. CASE: In the first place, a County can't 
put anything in the Governor's budget by local appropria- 
tion. 

MR. CLAGETT: I realize that, but assuming 
that they persuaded the Governor to include it. Then 
they would get away from the effect or any effect that the 
Assembly could exercise over them. 

MR. CASE: No. I don't follow the question. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I would think, Mr. Clagett, 
that the phrase, laws of the State, means laws passed by 
the Legislature and not local laws passed by a political 
subdivision. In other words, as I understand Paragraph C, 
the restriction on the Legislature there is to tie its 
hands only to the extent that it has already tied its own 
hands. 

MR. CASE: I might also say, Mr. Chairman, that 



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by construction, this, of course, refers to the last 
clause in Section 3. I mean it refers to the same thing. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Further questions? 

Mr. Haile? 

MR. HAILE: For the record, answering the ques- 
tion of Mr. Scanlan of whether this provision appears in 
any other State Constitutions, it does appear in the 
Charter of the Baltimore County Government, and it has been 
our experience that it is a very helpful provision. 
Mr. Donoho worked on that, and I believe he advised this 
Committee. He finds it very satisfactory and very useful. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? Proceed 
with the consideration of this Section. Hold your motion 
until we conclude consideration of the Section, Mr. Sykes . 

MR. CASE: The next sentence says, The General 
Assembly may amend the bill, the budget bill, of course, 
by increasing or decreasing the items therein relating 
to the General Assembly. 

That is a verbatim of the present constitution- 
al provision. It may increase the items there in relating 
to the Judiciary. The same thing is true. 



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The salary or compensation of any public officer 




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shall not be decreased during his terra of office. That 




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also is contained in the existing provisions. Except 




4 


as herein provided, the General Assembly shall not alter 




5 


the budget bill except to strike out or reduce items 




6 


therein. That is included in the present existing Consti- 




7 


tution. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions, Mr. Haile? 




9 


MR. HAILE: This Section starts off, The General 




10 


Assembly shall not amend the budget or the budget bill. 




11 


In this last sentence, I see a difference. As a matter of 




12 


fact, the budget is not before the Legislature. 




13 


MR. CASE: The reason the budget was put in 




14 


there in the first instance was to make it abundantly 




15 


clear that the estimate of revenues which does appear in 




16 


the budget but not in the budget bill could not be amended. 




17 


The revenue estimates do not appear in the budget bill. 




18 


They appear in the budget only. That is the reason the 




19 


words budget were put in the first sentence. They do not, 




20 


you are perfectly correct, they do not apply to the last 




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three sentences of the Section. 






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MR. HAILE: In effect, this last sentence says 
to amend, or to strike out or reduce items. That refers 
to items in the budget, does it not? 

MR. CASE: Budget bill. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The sentence uses the word 
budget bill. 

MR. HAILE: Yes, but I thought we changed 
the budget bill to one for programs and eliminated the 
items from the budget bill. That is my question. That 
is where the confusion is. 

MR. CASE: No. The budget and budget bill 
both go forward on a program basis. 

MR. HAILE: This means items of the program 
then, of the nature of a program, lump sum, yes. 

MR. CASE: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bo the? 

MRS. BOTHE : I am somewhat confused as to how 
the General Assembly might increase the revenue estimates 
There is no bill before them, I gather, and it is an 
executive function to make the estimate. I don't under- 
stand by what procedure the General Assembly does this. 



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1 MR. CASE: They might pass a joint resolution. 

2 MRS. BOTHE: Would that have the effect of 

3 actually « 

4 MR. CASE: That has the effect of law. That is 

5 a simple way to do it. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: The only real effect of that 

7 would be to permit them to increase the only items they 

8 can increase, namely the legislative? 

9 MR. CASE: That is right. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: But would permit them to do that 

H and still say they had a balanced .budget . 

12 Mr. Scanlan? 

13 MR. SCANLAN: Other States, directing your 

14 attention to the very last sentence, except as herein 

15 provided, the General Assembly shall not alter the budget 

16 bill except to strike out or reduce items , do other 

17 States have restrictions on the power of the representa- 

18 tives of the people to increase the budget bill or the bud- 

19 get? 

20 MR. CASE: I can answer that one. About 40 
per cent of the States have this provision; about 60 per 



21 



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1 per cent permit them to go either way. When Mr. Donaho , 

2 who was a consultant to the Sobeloff Commission, consultant 

3 to Baltimore County and many of our Counties, and Mr. 

4 Walter Haile just spoke about him, when he came before 

5 our Commission, he said, and I think this is interesting 

6 on the subject, that when he first came to Maryland, he 

7 felt that the General Assembly or the elected people should 

8 have the right to go either way, but after working with 

9 this for a number of years, and dealing with it and seeing 

10 how it works, he was converted and felt that it was the 

11 better of the two systems, and I think he said that 

12 Governor Smiley in Washington State — 

13 MR. SCANLAN: Idaho. 

14 MR. CASE: Well, it is the one in Washington, 

15 that is where it was, they changed their Constitution, 

16 and he told me this as an aside, to bring this into his 

17 recommendation under Maryland practice. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

19 MR. GENTRY: The Judiciary submits its own 

20 budget. Could they reduce salaries of some judges? 

21 MR. CASE: No, they couldn't reduce. The 



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1 salaries of the judges which were fixed in the act are 

2 mandated items, and this is the same as the school budget. 

3 MR. GENTRY: Even the Judiciary itself? 

4 MR. CASE: It would not be subject to reduction 

5 MR. MINDEL: What about employees other than 

6 judges in the judicial system? 

7 MR. CASE: We had quite a long discussion with 

8 Mr. Martineau, Mr. Invernize, Mr. Sachs and myself on 

9 this subject this week. If you have an employee whose 

10 salary was not specified as such by law, then the Governor 

11 would have a right to change that. He does change it 

12 now. As a matter of fact, the Governor goes over all of 

13 the nonmandated items and makes changes in them. The 

14 Governor and the Legislature would have a right to change 

15 it . I might say that Mr. Martineau, I don't want to 

16 speak for him, he is not here, but Mr. Sachs can correct 

17 my impression if I am wrong about this. After completely 

18 explaining to Mr. Martineau and to Mr. Invernize how this 

19 system would work with respect to the Judiciary, he was 

20 completely satisfied. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: He so advised me also. Any 



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further questions? 




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Mr. Sayre? 




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MR. SAYRE: I just want to be sure I understand 




4 


this last sentence. Number one, confining ourselves to 




5 


the budget bill only, I am asking the questions on this, tb 


is 


6 


does not then prevent the Legislature having or initiating 




7 


a supplemental bill to increase? 




8 


MR. CASE: Hold that. That comes later. That 




9 


is not involved here. 




10 


MR. SAYRE: All right. We will cross that one 




11 


out. This does not prevent the Governor later from 




12 


initiating a supplemental bill if he has something cut 




13 


he feels strongly about? 




14 


MR. CASE: If it is an amendment, we have dealt 




15 


with that in the last Section. 




16 


MR. SYKES: Relating this to striking out so he 




17 


couldn't initiate that later in a supplemental bill? 




18 


MR. CASE: He can send down a supplemental ap- 




19 


propriation bill. We have dealt with that. 




20 


MR. SYKES: Clarifying my understanding. Now, 




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the main effect of this, is it not, is to prevent an 






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across-the-board percentage cut? 

MR. CASE: I am sorry -- 

MR. SYKES: The main effect of this require- 
ment, the Legislature can only strike by item, is to 
prevent their having an across-the-board percentage cut 
in the budget, isn't that correct? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think you have misread the 
sentence, Mr. Sayre, on the basis of your last comment. 

MR. SAYRE: The way I read it is that the 
General Assembly can only alter by reducing by item, is 
that correct? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I will ask Mr. Case to answer. 
I would not have supposed that that sentence would prevent 
the Legislature from applying a percentage reduction 
to every item in the budget. 

MR. SAYRE: I would interpret that and I would 
say that is highly desirable, but I want to be sure that 
is the proper interpretation. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: As I interpret it, it would permit 
the General Assembly to make any item that it saw fit, 



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1 reduce it, strike it out, strike them all out, strike 

2 them out halfway or anything you want to do as long as 

3 it is down. 

4 MR. SAYRE: As long as it is named? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: No. 

" MR. SAYRE: Do you see what I am saying, for 

^ the Legislature to alter or strike, it has to pinpoint 
what it is going to remove. 



9 MR. CASE: It necessarily does that. It is 

the only way you can strike it out, is by amending it. 

11 MR. SAYRE: You can say we don't like it, we 

12 

will have a 10 per cent reduction of the budget, without 

** any itemization. That is what I assume this prohibits. 
14 MR. CASE: If it was going to do that, every 

*5 item would have to be struck and a new item put in because 
you have got to amend -- the bill is a law just like any 
other law. If you don't want it to mean a hundred dollars, 
*° but you want to make it mean ninety dollars, you have got 
* 9 to put a line through the hundred and say ninety, right 
20 below. 

MR. SAYRE: When I say item, I mean by program. 



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1 I don't mean by pencil, but you have to specify the 

2 program 

3 MR. CASE: You have to amend the particular 
* section of the bill that you are dealing with. 

5 MR. SAYRE: So I do interpret this properly. 

6 You cannot have a blanket reduction. 
V THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre, I think you are not 

8 following Mr. Case. What he is saying to you is that 

9 if the Legislature wants to put through a 10 per cent 
*0 reduction in the budget, they can accomplish that by re 
H ducing the number for each program, each item in the 
** budget by 10 per cent. 
15 MR. SAYRE: Yes, but they have to name the 

14 program, the item. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: You have to amend the bill. 
The bill is made up of a lot of items. There is only 

* ' one way to amend it . 

1 Q MR. SAYRE: I just want to be sure that I in- 

terpret this to not be a blanket reduction. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I don't agree with your last 
statement. It is a matter of semantics. 



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1 MR. CASE: I think so. 

2 MR. SAYRE: No. This is a real problem. 

3 This, I think, is one of the most important Articles in 
* the Constitution, and I just want to be sure that the 

5 Legislature, is going to be responsible by item reduction, 
• which I interpret this to mean. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: Putting it a little bit dlffer- 

° ently, a blanket reduction can be accomplished if you 

: list all the items. 

MR. SAYRE: Exactly, but there you put the 
Legislature on the spot. 

MR. CASE: Everybody is saying the same thing. 
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think so. Any further ques- 

14 tions? 

15 MR. SAYRE: Okay. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on this 

17 Section? 

18 Mr. Mindel? 

19 MR. MINDEL: Dick, does the budget bill always 
coincide with the budget or are there any changes before 
the budget bill is made up? 



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budget. 



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MR. CASE: The budget bill is taken from the 

MR. MINDEL: They coincide? 

MR. CASE: Yes. 

MR. SCANLAN: I have a motion. 

THE CHAIRMAN: There are further questions. 

Mr. Mindel? 

MR. MINDEL: Mr. Chairman, I am concerned 
about the language of the last sentence, the last phrase, 
except to strike out or reduce items therein. It just 
seems to me that that overrides everything that is in 
that Section. 

THE CHAIRMAN: What about the first phrase, 
except as herein provided? 

MR. MINDEL: I understand. I am worried about 
the last phrase. It seems to me that that overrides 
everything that comes ahead. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I follow you. 

MR. CASE: I don't follow it either. The words, 
except as herein provided, is intended to do exactly 
that, except the provis ions above it. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Haile? 

MR. HAILE: I would like to ask this question: 
After the Legislature reduces an item in the budget, I 
assume that means that then the Executive branch deter- 
mines at a later date what part of that program they will 
have to eliminate, and the Legislature cannot specify 
what part of the program they intended to have eliminated? 

MR. CASE: That is essentially correct. There 
are so many dollars to do the program. You have got to 
do the best you can with them. 

MR. HAILE: So the Legislature cuts the lump 
sum, and then the Executive -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: Decides whether it is pencils or 
people . 

MR. HAILE: That is the way it is in Baltimore 
County. I wish there were some clearer way to make that 
expressed in here.' 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

DR. BURDETTE: Are you now saying that the 
Legislature can simply say, This thing has to be cut, by . 
a hundred thousand dollars, and the Governor can figure 



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it out? 




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MR. CASE: No, sir. 




3 


DR. BURDETTE: Do you want to do that, Mr. 




4 


Haile? 




5 


MR. HAILE: That is what we do in Baltimore 




6 


County. 




7 


DR. BURDETTE: I thought we agreed a few 




8 


minutes ago this couldn't be done? 




9 


THE CHAIRMAN: I think the difficulty is that 




10 


Mr. Haile is talking about specific items. Mr. Sayre 




11 


was talking about the entire budget . As Mr. Case pointed 




12 


out, the budget bill is made up of a series of items. 




13 


Each item is a program. If the Item 10 in the budget 




14 


bill is a million dollars for XYZ program, the Legislature 




15 


cuts it to nine hundred thousand dollars, I take it, then, 




16 


that the executive has to decide whether he has less 




17 


pencils or less people. 




18 


MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I believe 




19 


Mr. Mitchell has got a point here insofar as the reading 




20 


of this double exception. If you read this sentence, the 




21 


General Assembly shall not alter the budget bill, except 






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as herein provided, except to strike out or reduce items 
therein, you have got a different meaning. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You are not getting through to 
me. Did you follow him, Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: No, sir. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do it again. 

MR. CLAGETT: If you read this sentence, the 
General Assembly shall not alter the budget bill, except 
as herein provided, except to strike out or reduce items 
therein, it means that you can strike out or reduce the 
items which would, in effect, be an amending. I am 
transposing a sentence. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You can strike out or reduce 
the items. That is the whole point of it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

MR. GENTRY: I think it is awkward because 
of the two exceptions. I see what Hal is driving at. 
Maybe this would work, except as provided herein the 
General Assembly may alter the budget bill only by strik- 
ing out or reducing items therein. 

MR. CLAGETT: Exactly. 



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MR. GENTRY: That would cure this double excep- 




2 


tion . 




3 


MR. CASE: If I may say this, everybody knows 




4 


fthat this is supposed to mean. I would suggest this is 




5 


a matter for the Committee on Style. 




6 


THE CHAIRMAN: We will leave it that way. 




7 


Any further question on this Section before we 




8 


get the motion? 




9 


I have a question, and I just don't know the 




10 


answer offhand. I am not sure of it. Is this provision, 




11 


salary or compensation of any public officer shall not 




12 


be decreased during his term of office, elsewhere in one 




13 


of our drafts? Isn't this one of the things your Com- 




14 


mittee is considering, Mrs. Bothe? 




15 


MRS. BOTHE: It is not elsewhere any place as 




16 


far as I know, Mr. Eney. The Judiciary Committee dis- 




17 


cussed it with reference to the Judiciary. 




18 


THE CHAIRMAN: there is no special provision? 




19 


MRS. BOTHE: Not specifically assigned to my 




20 


Committee . 




21 

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THE CHAIRMAN: My second question, Mr. Case, 






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is, is anything added by the words, salary? Could we 




2 


simply say compensation? 




3 


MR. CASE: It is just taken from the existing 




4 


compensa t ion . 




5 


THE CHAIRMAN: I know it is. 




6 


MR. CASE: All right, compensation, remunera- 




7 


tion. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Can we take out the word, 




9 


salary, or? Any objection, take out salary, or. 




10 


Now, in the second or third and fourth lines, 




11 


you refer to the principle of all indebtedness created 




12 


on behalf of the State as required by Section 34. In 




13 


view of the fact that in that Section, which will have a 




14 


different number eventually, you provide specifically that 




15 


only what applies with that Section can constitute a 




16 


State debt, can we use simply the term, debt, here, 




17 


State debt, instead of the cross reference? 




18 


MR. CASE: Indebtedness was used to refer to 




19 


State debt, as used in that Section, as a word of art. 




20 


THE CHAIRMAN: I just wondered whether we could 




" 


avoid the cross reference, which is just one of the things 






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to remember to pick up. 

MR. CASE: The idea is, of course, that this 
3 is a State debt as defined. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Can we leave that to the 
5 Committee on Style? 

MR. CASE: Yes, sir. 

THE CHAIRMAN: It does not bother you? 
MR. CASE: No. 
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, getting back to 
your first point, I don't think there is any argument 
about substitute, but we have elsewhere in the Constitu- 
tion that certain salaries can't be reduced. It doesn't 
A seem to me, it is the appropriation for salaries we are 
talking about here rather than the right, going into 
detail, of who is an employee and who is an officer. I 
*' would think that the Committee on Style could work that 

out a little better, so it doesn't look like we are 
1 legislating out of place. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We will check that. 

21 

Any further questions? If not, Mr. Sykes , do you want to 

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make a motion? 

MR. SYKES: Yes. I move we amend the first 
sentence of Subsection 5 to read, The General Assembly 
shall not amend the budget or the budget bill so as to 
change the estimate of revenues therein contained, or 
affect, (a) the appropriation of sufficient funds to 
provide for the timely payment of the interest upon and 
installments and principal of all indebtedness, and so 
on, or, (b) the provisions made by the laws of the State 
for the establishment and maintenance of the system of 
public schools. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 



MR. MITCHELL 
THE CHAIRMAN 



Second . 

Mr. Mitchell seconds. Mr. Sykes? 
MR. SYKES: My reason for that is that I want 
to preserve the word affect in connection with the two 
items withwhich it is used in the amendment because it 
carries over existing constitutional provisions which have 
worked well enough. With regard to the item on the 
estimate of revenues, this is a new item not in existing 
law, and I am afraid the use of the word, affect, which 



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was perfectly appropriate for the things that it covered 




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in the existing Constitution, is too broad and may have 




3 


unintended consequences as to this new matter, and the 




4 


change that we are effecting should be limited to changes 




5 


directly in the estimate of revenue. 




6 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case? 




7 


MR. CASE: We have no objection to that. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mindel? 




9 


MR. MINDEL: Does the estimate of revenues apper 


r 


10 


only in the budget and not the budget bill? 




11 


MR. CASE: Budget. 


1 


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MR. MINDEL: In that case, I would like to 




13 


make a motion. 




14 


MR. CASE: It could appear in the budget bill, 




15 


but as a practical matter it never has. 




16 


MR. MINDEL: The General Assembly shall not 




17 


amend the budget so as to alter or change the estimate of 




18 


revenues therein contained or amend the budget bill so 




19 


as to affect (b) and (c) that we had there. 




20 


MR. CASE: May I speak to that? 




21 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes , do you accept the 






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amendment? 




2 


MR. SYKES: No, sir. 




3 


THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to make a motion to 




4 


amend the motion? 




5 


MR. MINDEL: No. 




6 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of the 




7 


motion? Are you ready for the question? 




8 


MR. SAYRE : Does Mr. Case have a comment on 




9 


that? 




10 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case said he had no objec- 




11 


tion. Are you ready for the question? The question 


1 


12 


arises on the motion to amend Subsection 5 so that the 


i 


13 


first sentence will read, the General Assembly shall not 




14 


amend the budget or the budget bill so as to change the 




15 


estimate of revenues therein contained, or so as to affect, 




16 


and then follow with (b) and (b) . 




17 


MR. SYKES : Renumbered (a) and (b) ? 




18 


THE CHAIRMAN: Which will be re lettered (a) 




19 


and (b) . Are you ready for the question? All those in 




20 


favor, signify by saying Aye; Contrary, No. The Ayes 




21 


have it. It is so ordered. 






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Mr. Scanlan, you had a motion? 

MR. SCANLAN: Yes. I move that we delete the 
3 last sentence of the proposed Subsection 5. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? Is there 
5 any second? The motion fails for want of a second. Any 

further discussion or motions with respect to Subsection 5? 
' If not, we will proceed to consider Section 6. 

Q 

MR. CASE: Section 6 incorporates something 
that is entirely new, and I think the Commission in a 
similar situation has been faced with this problem before, 
and has responded, and the solution that you find in 
Section 6 to the problem I am now going to state is some- 

1,3 what analogous to the solution the Commission has already 

1 made in this other area, and I believe you will see what 

*•** I am talking about when I get into it. 

The problem here is the fact that the Consti- 

1 tution has always provided that no appropriation bill, 
money bill, as they are called in the General Assembly, 
can move until the budget has been finally passed, and it 
was for this reason, say some, that the Cooper-Hughes 
tax reform measure was blocked in the General Assembly 



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1 for such a long period of time this last session, namely, 

2 and the reason was, or it is claimed that the reason was 

3 that the General Assembly just didn't act on the budget 

4 soon enough to permit the General Assembly to then take 

5 up other money bills. 

6 Our Committee went into this matter in great 

7 depth and discussed it with not only legislative leaders 

8 but people, budget people, the Governor and others, and 

9 in addition to the consultants and experts that appeared 

10 at our day-long hearing, and with the exception of one 

11 or two, and these were mine, the unanimity of opinion was 

12 that the provision in the Constitution requiring the 

13 budget bill to become law first before other money bills 

14 move is a salutary provision and should be preserved. 

15 It was felt by practically everybody that this was a very 

16 vital safeguard, permitting the Legislature to see just 

17 where it is on the principal appropriations of State 
. revenues before they get into frolics, problems of their 
19 own or somebody else's problems. 

: We also learned that, as a matter of fact, the 

- General Assembly probably could and in fact should act 



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1 sooner than it does on the budget. The witnesses all 

2 said, including the legislative leaders, that too much 

3 time was spent on minutia on whether or not Crownsville 
* should have four secretaries or five secretaries , and so 

5 on and so forth, and that really if the Members of the 

6 General Assembly got down to viewing the situation program 

7 by program, and weighing needs against proposed programs, 

8 that they could come to grips with the budget and make 

9 solutions with respect to it in a lot earlier time than 
is actually done at the present; so we had these two 

H counterbalance philosophies to work out, and the solution 

** that the Committee came up with, in substance, is this: 

13 That the Governor presents a well thought out, coordinated 

** budget, showing revenues, estimated revenues and disburse- 

15 ments and a budget bill appropriating the disbursements. 

16 Presumptively, he has spent a lot of time on this. He has 
1? had a lot of experts working on it. The reason to have the 

Legislature review it and pass it into law is the obvious 

19 check and balance in our own system of government. 



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* its feet on the budget, this was necessarily not a desirabl 

2 thing, so the Committee decided to introduce this present 

3 provision, that says, in effect, that if the General 

* Assembly hasn't acted within a certain period of time, 
5 the time specified in here, if they haven't acted and 

** brought the budget bill out and passed it in some form, 

' any form they want, then it automatically becomes law. 
° This, as I said, is consistent with the judg- 

ment of this Commission on the reapportionment section, 
which we have already passed, and there as you all recall, 
we have somewhat a similar thing, where the plan is not 
acted upon within a certain period of time, it becomes 
law. 

" Now, this provision required some refinements, 

** which I will discuss when I come to it, but you will re- 
*° call that the Governor is given the right to supplement 
*' the budget, correct oversights, supply omissions, et 

cetera. It was felt that in view of the fact that the 
budget bill could become law by inaction, that it would 

be wrong to permit the same thing to happen to a supple- 
Pi 

ment, which might go down from the Governor s office the 



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1 night before the budget bill would by operation of consti- 

2 tutional mandate become law, so that this automatic pro- 

3 vision does not apply to supplements and those supplements 

4 then become supplemental appropriation bills, and are 

5 transferred to another, or by another section of the Con- 

6 stitution through a little different procedural aspect. 

7 Now, Section 6: The budget bill shall become 

8 law when passed by both houses of the General Assembly, 

9 which is a declaration of what is now the law and what 
*" ordinarily should happen. 

I* If the budget bill shall not have been finally 

** acted upon by the General Assembly within ten (10) days 

13 before the expiration of its regular session, it shall 

14 become law in the form and tenor of its original intro- 

15 duction; there is the innovation. Ten days is a judgment 

16 on the part of the Commission, or the Committee. We felt 

17 it was a fair and adequate length of time to permit other 
19 vital State business to move through the General Assembly 
19 after the budget had become law; but this provision, 

namely that it shall become law, shall be inapplicable 
to any amendment to or supplement to the budget bill made 



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1 as provided by Subsection 4 of this Section 52. That is 



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the thing I spoke about, where the Governor supplements 



* for oversight or omissions. 



In the event the budget bill becomes a lav; by 



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bly, any amendments or supplements thereto shall be con- 



1 trolled and governed by Subsection 8 hereof relating to 
8 

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supplementary appropriation bills. 

That transfers them to another procedural arena 
We will discuss that in a few minutes. 

The budget bill, upon becoming a law, shall 
not be subject to veto by the Governor. That is in the 
current Constitution. The budget bill is not subject 
to veto, for obvious reasons. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

16 Mr. Sayre? 

17 MR. SAYRE: Suppose the Legislature decided 
that it couldn't handle all of its problems prior to the 
ten-day limitation, so on the eleventh day decided to 
extend by another 30 days after termination. Where does 
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MR. CASE: This, of course, was written before 
the Commission conceived, or before the Commission made 
that judgment. It would be my feeling that it would be 
ten days from the regular session and not ten days — I 
mean, from the original session and not the extended 
period . 

MR. SAYRE: Shouldn't that be spelled out, 
then? 

MR. CASE: I don't know. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Couldn't you accomplish it by 
simply saying 50 days, that if the bill shall not have 
been finally acted on by the General Assembly within 50 
days after its introduction? 

MR. CASE: You could. 

the chairman: Would that be acceptable? That 
would mean ten days before the end of the session, if 
the Legislature extended. 

MR. CASE: You could do it. 

MR. GENTRY: What is the figure, 50 or 60? 

THE CHAIRMAN: If the bill is not finally 
acted upon by the General Assembly within 50 days after 



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its introduction. 

MR. GENTRY: Fifty or sixty? 

THE CHAIRMAN: The Legislature under the other 
Section has the right to extend the time for ten days so 
this could be 60 days after the beginning of the session. 
Any objection to that change? 

MR. MILLER: I think it is an improvement. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let's make that change. Any 
further questions? 

Mrs. Freedlander? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Case, it is a rather 
unique concept in legislative history. Is it v;orking 
anywhere? Has it ever been tried anywhere else? 

MR. CASE: So far as I know, in this area, it 
is new. We have tested this very carefully with Mr. Ren- 
nie and the budget people, and they say it will work, and 
they hope it becomes part of the lav;. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: I have a question about the overall 
budget provisions in regard to the coordinate branches of 
Government. I understand with regard to the Judiciary 



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now that the budget for the Judicial Department is not 
to be revised by the Governor and that the budget as 
submitted by the Judicial Department cannot be changed 
by the Legislature and then can't be vetoed by the Governor 
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not correct. 
MR. CASE: Mandated items, only mandated items, 
THE CHAIRMAN: They can be increased. 

MR. SYKES: I am talking about the Judiciary. 

* 
MR. CASE: Yes, V7hich have mandated items, 

cannot be reduced. They can be increased. 

MR. SYKES: Yes. Well, maybe I didn't get it. 
There are parts of the Judiciary budget that are subject 
to revision by the Legislature? Is that the intention? 

THE CHAIRMAN: By the Governor and the Legis- 



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lature . 


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MR. CASE: That is right. 


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MR. SYKES: I missed that. Then the only man- 


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dated items are judges' salaries and that is all. 


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MR. CASE: Yes. 


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MR. SYKES: If that is the case — 


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General Assembly wants to include. It may think the law 
clerks 1 salaries ought to be mandated, too. 
3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, this is again a 

5 question of wording and ought to go to the Committee on 

6 Style, I think, but I find in reading this over, it is 
' quite confusing. On the sixth line of Subsection 6, 

where it goes on to say, but this provision shall not be 
applicable, et cetera -- I think that ought to be simpli- 
fied. As I understand it, it means it doesn't apply at 
all to anything there, and it will be applied later under 
Subsection 4. I would like to see if we couldn't get 
it so it reads a little more intelligibly. 
14 - THE CHAIRMAN: All right. That will be con- 
^ sidered by the Committee on Style. Any further questions? 

16 Mrs. Bothe? 

17 MRS. BOTHE: Did you get any reaction from 

18 legislative leaders on this proposition of the budget bill 
1 going through on a time limit? 

MR. CASE: I think the idea came originally 
from the hearing. 

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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Before the Committee on the 

2 Executive Department. 

3 MRS. BOTHE: I gather there was no objection. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the Liaison Committee 

5 that appeared, by and large they were all in sympathy 

6 with it. The only, as I recall the testimony, the only 

7 departure from their views from that of the Committee 

8 was the feeling that the Legislature ought to be able to 

9 consider other appropriation bills, but not finally act 

10 on them. 

11 MR. CASE: That is right. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: That, I think, was the only point 

13 en which they differed. Any further questions? I think 

14 Mr. Haile had a question, and I passed him by. 

15 MR. HAILE: The provision that the budget will 

16 become law if not passed by the Legislature is in our 
- County Charter. It works excellently, excellent provision. 
18 We don't have the delays for instance that Baltimore 

City has, and the embarrassment as a result of it. 
• THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions or comment fi 

: Professor Burdette? 



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DR. BURDETTE: A question. It was commented 
that for obvious reasons the Governor should not have a 
veto. I am wondering if the Committee looked into this. 
It is in the Constitution now. It occurs to me if the 
Legislature were to reduce the Governor's budget by a 
very large portion, or began to increase some salaries -- 

MR. CASE: I can't hear you. 

DR. BURDETTE: If the Governor's budget were 
extensively decreased by the Legislature, this might be 
very appropriate for the Governor to have a veto. I don't 
know if it has ever happened. If it did, why shouldn't 
it require that he do such a thing? I am simply question- 
ing the elimination of the Governor's veto, which I 
realize is in the old Constitution. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: Well, the Governor, it is the 
Governor's budget, and he proposes and the Legislature 
disposes, I suppose. That is the answer. 

DR. BURDETTE: The argument I made is the 
Governor had a very strong reason, and if they ripped up 
his budget -- 



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MR. CASE: The trouble with that is as a 




2 


practical matter, if you would permit -- what you are 




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suggest ing is the Governor should have a right to line 




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item veto the budget. 




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DR. BURDETTE: No. He wouldn't object to it. 




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MR. CASE: It is just impractical to do it, 




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Dr. Burdette. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, isn't one of the real 




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difficulties the timetable? 




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MR. CASE: That is right. 




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DR. BURDETTE: I have known States in which 




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it is necessary to gall a special session of the Legis- 




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lature to deal with the budget again because the Governor 




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had vetoed it. 




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MR. CASE: That is what we want to avoid 




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if we can . 




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DR. BURDETTE: I don't feel very strongly. 




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What I am a little afraid of, all we have done is 




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copied the old Constitution. 




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MR. CASE: Everybody that we talked to, Dr. 




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provision. That is why it is continued. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: The thing that really bothers me, 
I guess, is if I can go back to it a moment, because it 
relates to the one we discussed, it is the language in 
Section 5 that says, The General Assembly may amend the 
bill by increasing or decreasing the items therein relat- 
ing to the General Assembly. It may increase the items 
therein relating to the Judiciary. When I read that in 
connection with the subsequent Section, I was confused 
as to whether it didn't deny the power to reduce items 
relating to the Judiciary Department. The language itself 
makes no distinction between mandated and nonmandated • 
items . 

THE CHAIRMAN: It denies it to the Legislature 
but not to the Executive. 

MR. SYKES: The previous Section denied it to 
the Executive. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, sir. Look at it; that is the 
phrase, required by law. 



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1 MR. SYKES: Which Section is that? 

2 MR. CASE: Three, as required by lav7; that is 

3 page 13. 

4 MR. SYKES: Thank you. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? Any 
" further comment? Are there any motions? 

7 MR. SCANLAN: Mr. Chairman -- 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scan Ian? 

MR. SCANLAN: Again, we may not get a second, 

but not to stand idly by while the powers of the Executive 
are cut back and those of the Executive raised, I move 
that we delete the language in the second line, if the 
* 3 budget bill, et cetera, all the way down to the phrase, 

14 appropriation bills, appearing in the next to the last • 

15 line. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I follow your 
*' motion. Would you state it again? 

18 MR. SCANLAN: I move that we delete from Sub- 

* 9 section 6, the language beginning, in the second line, 

if the budget, and all that comes after that, ending with 
the words, appropriation bills in the next to the last line 



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1 of the Section. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: You would delete all except 

3 the first and last sentences? 

4 MR. SCANLAN: That is correct. I could have 

5 stated it that way, I think. 



6 THE CHAIRMAN 

7 DR. BURDETTE 



Any second? Any discussion? 
I second . 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scan Ian? 

9 MR. SCANLAN: I thought that one of the objec- 

10 tives of this Commission was to strengthen all branches 

11 of government. Yet, as I have sat here, and I did miss 

12 one meeting, I have seen the legislative powers hardly 

13 strengthened at all. On the other hand, in the Finance 

14 Section today, we see the Governor given a very strong 

15 hand, except for a few sacred cows , over the budget. We 

16 now see a proposal here where the most important piece of 

17 legislature that comes before any representative body, 

18 namely, the budget, can become law without their approval 

19 by Executive fiat, if they don't get around to the task 

20 in time. Previously I objected, but got nowhere on the 

21 last Section, when the Legislature's hands are tied. 



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1 They can only delete. They can only decrease. They can- 

2 not under any circumstances increase the budget, even 

3 though a grave emergency or a long emergency of some years ' 
4r duration may be confronting the State. After all, the 

5 power of the purse is probably the most important, and it 

6 is being eroded away by the type of proposals that the 

7 Finance Committee has come in with. This is especially 

8 one of the worst. This is an affront to representative 

9 government. You pass it within time or it becomes law. 

10 The analogy of the reapportionment law doesn't hold at 

11 all. That comes up every ten years. That involves a 

12 situation where j in effect, you are asking the Legislature 

13 to sit in judgment on itself. I don't think it furnishes 

14 any precedent for what Mr. Case himself, very candidly, 

15 labels an innovation, for which there is no precedent in 

16 any State Constitution, whatever may be the case of the 
IV Baltimore Charter. On those grounds I move the adoption 

18 of the amendment . 

19 ' THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

20 Mr. Sayre? 

21 MR. SAYRE: My original thinking about three 



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years ago was along the lines of Mr. Scanlan, but the 
presentation of the budget is of such a nature, when tied 
in with the reorganizational powers of the Governor, to 
make it absolutely necessary that you have an operating 
budget, and then discuss any new programs or the differ- 
ences of opinion or whatever might be involved in this 
supplementary bill, the budget bill. It would seem to 
me that this is a very salutary provision so that the 
Government itself can continue operating and the Legis- 
lature then will have more time to discuss the merits of 
the programs . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: I merely want to say, leaving 
completely to one side the fact, with the exception of 
the school problem, this is the most important cornerstone 
of our Committee's Report, and therefore, I have some 
general feeling about hoping the Commission sustains it; 
Mr. Scanlan, in his remarks, completely in my judgment 
misses the point when he says that this provision continues 
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the contrary. This provision intends to and does strengthen 
those powers, because as it now stands, the Legislature 
is powerless to act until the money bill passes. This 
provision will give the Legislature the right to act on 
other bills after a set period of time. Now what Mr. 
Scanlan doesn't tell you, and what he should know, and 
I assume he knows is that there is no such great body 
as the Legislature when you deal with practicalities. 
What happens is that a certain few people control the 
destiny of the budget bill, and if they want the budget 
bill to move, it moves. If they don't want the budget 
bill to move, it doesn't move. Therefore, one or two 
people can control the right of the Legislature to move 
on other things. 

Now, what this will do will weaken the hands 
of those leaders in holding up the budget bill, force 
the budget bill to a consideration. If it is not con- 
sidered, it becomes law, and then the Legislature is free 
to exercise its prerogatives in the time that remains, 
a situation that it has never had anything until this 
time . 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 

2 MR. SYKES: Is there any possibility that they 

3 may be reversed by collusion between these leaders and 
4: the Governor if they are on his side, and the budget bill, 

5 in effect, kept from consideration of the Legislature so 

6 that it may be considered or may become law in its original 

7 form? This gives me concern. 

8 MR. CASE: I don't think that is possible. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: It can always be petitioned out. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case has the floor. 

11 MR. CASE: Under the rules, anything of that 

12 nature can be subverted by the usual petition. As a mat- 

13 ter of fact, that kind of collusion couldn't be kept 

14 from the public view. You would have to have hearings. 

15 The pressure here is to get going on the thing, to have 

16 hearings immediately, because you have got to do it. 

17 MR. SYKES: Would there be enough delay pos- 

18 sible in this type thing in the petition procedure to make 

19 hard and fast deadline date impossible to meet and to have 

20 the effect of denying regulative consideration to the bill? 

21 MR. CASE: Every Legislature that came before 



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1 us said they could move it if they wanted to. 

2 MR. SYKES: Who could move it? 

3 MR. CASE: The General Assembly. For example, 

4 the Speaker of the House said there just wasn't any reason 

5 for these fellows dillydallying around the way they did, 

6 and if a provision such as this were in the law, they 
V would get down and go to work on it. 

8 MR. SYKES: How does that tie in with your 

9 statement just a moment ago that a few key people can 

10 pretty well control whether the bill is considered or not 

** considered? 

12 MR. CASE: Because what happens is that they 

13 hold continuous interminable hearings. It is considered 

14 all right, but it is not acted on. What we want is both 

15 consideration and action. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett : 

IV MR. CLAGETT: May I point out, to solace 

18 Mr. Scanlan's feelings, because he spoke feelingly, that 

19 the last sentence avoids a veto by the Governor, so 

20 actually it is the act, if they act timely, of the Legis- 

21 lature. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. 

* Scanlan, you may close. 
3 MR. SCANLAN: I would just like to say in answer 

* to Mr . Case's remarks, that at least in my mind, they 

5 confirm what I think is the case. Not only Subsection 6, 

6 pardon the pun, Dick, not only Subsection 6 but the 
' previous Section, that those Sections are based basically 
° on a distrust, a skepticism about the legislative pro- 
9 cess, and you just can't pin it on the leaders. Whoever 

the leaders are, they are the people elected by the, or 
the representatives of the people to be leaders, and 
purportedly they represent the membership, and I don't 

1 think that tying the hands of the Legislature to the 

extent that has been done in this provision, this Sub- 

*■* section and in some of the others for future generations, 

16 based on what is concededly an innovation, favored 

17 primarily by the budget people, who as Mr. Case says, 
always come out with, quote, well thought out , close quote, 



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budgets, I have known of budget people and executives that 

20 

have come out with, quote, not well thought out, unquote, 

21 

budget programs, but I think I am repeating myself when I 



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* move the adopting of the amendment. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? 

3 MR. SYKES: What is the question? 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: The question arises on the motion 

5 to delete from Subsection 6 everything except the first 
9 and last sentences. Are you ready for the question? All 

7 those in favor of the motion, please signify by a show 

8 of hands. Contrary? The motion is lost, 3 to 12. 

* Before we move on to the next Subsection, we 
have an arrangement with the hotel to have lunch at one, 

11 so we will adjourn. 

12 (Whereupon the meeting adjourned, to reconvene 

13 following the luncheon recess.) 



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8 Holiday Inn, Baltimore, Maryland 

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14 Appearances as heretofore noted . 

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1 , THE CHAIRMAN: May we go ahead now, please? 

2 Page 28, Subsection 7. 

3 MR. CASE: This Section tends to con: bine in 

4 a simplified way provisions of Sections 11, 12 and 7, 

5 which appear in the present Constitution, with some modi- 

6 fications, explained in the text. It reads as follows: 

7 Either house of the General Assembly may require any per- 

8 son in any department, board, branch, bureau, or agency 

9 of the State government to appear and be heard with 

10 respect to any budget bill during the consideration 

11 thereof, and the Governor or any such person as he shall 

12 designate shall have the right to appear for the purpose 

13 of explaining the budget bill or any item therein con- 

14 tained. 

15 The present Constitution, as I said a minute 

16 ago, has three separate Sections, which attempt to define 

17 the rights of the General Assembly, vis-a-vis the Governor 

18 in how messages get to the General Assembly, who can 

19 appear and what the General Assembly can do by way of 

20 requiring people to appear, and we think, the Committee 

21 feels that this Section as written in substance covers all 



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1 of the existing provisions in the Constitution, and frank - 

2 ly does it better. 

3 One thing is omitted, and I should call your 

* attention to it by way of eliciting some degree of spiritec' 

5 debate from my opposite number over there, the present 

6 Constitution in Section 7 provides that the Governor and 

7 such representatives of the Executive Department, boards, 

8 officers, et cetera, who shall spend State money, shall 

9 have the right and when requested by either house of the 
General Assembly, it shall be their duty, so that the 



10 



** present Constitution required not only department heads 

12 to respond to the call of the General Assembly, but also 

13 provides in substance that the Governor can be summonsed 

14 before the General Assembly to explain his budget. Ue 

15 have removed that Section from the proposed draft and pro- 

16 vided only that the department heads, not the Governor -- 

17 the Governor should not, we think, be subject to summons 
1^ by the General Assembly for this purpose. 

1 9 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander? 

21 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Upon reading this, I wonder, 



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since these boards, agencies, et cetera, are the creatures 
of the General Assembly and are maintained through the 
3 appropriations by the General Assembly, would this not 
* be an inherent right of the General Assembly to call them? 

5 Is it necessary to have this , even though it is in the 

6 old Constitution? Wouldn't these people be forced to 
come anyway? 

8 MR. CASE: They might or they might not. Cer- 

9 tainly, they should have the right to appear, which the 
second part of the Section does, and that is not implicit 

H in anything that we have unless it is given expressly 
1* in the Constitution. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

14 MR. CLAGETT: I can't disqualify the Governor 

15 from being a person, and the head of a branch, in the 

16 second line of that Subsection. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words , you are afraid 
IS the language is susceptible of including the Governor? 
i9 MR. CLAGETT: Exactly. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case? 

2 1 MR. CASE: I think that that argument, of course 



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1 could be made, but in the context of the Section here and 

2 the notes and the idea that the Constitution presently 

3 says the Governor, and we are taking it out, I don't 

4 believe that anything would happen to the Governor if he dis 

5 obeyed a summons by the Legislature. In other words, if 

6 you just started fresh, you would probably be right, Hal, 

7 but within the context of what we are doing here, I don't 

8 believe there would be any question about it. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: You don't think there may be a 
10 possibility of a Democratic Assembly and a Republican 
1* Governor being at odds and a little harassment might go 

12 off? 

13 • MR. CASE: I think it is possible. This is to 

14 prevent as much harassment as possible. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you remove any doubt by 

16 adding a phrase such as, other than the Governor? 

17 MR. CASE: We just didn't think it was 

18 necessary. As I say, in view of the way this is coming 

19 up, it would be perfectly clear to anybody who reads it 

20 that it is intended to eliminate from the present draft 

21 the word , Governor. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 

2 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that 

3 this whole Section, the fact we have had it in the prev- 
^ ious Constitution, we are trying to improve and shorten 

5 it . I don't see -- we are still discussing giving the 

6 Legislative branch the power of subpeona , which I per- 

7 sonally feel is necessary. If they could call somebody 

8 in on reasonable grounds, why put it in the Constitution, 

9 the same thing? As far as the Governor is concerned, as 

10 a practical matter, you have had the same thing at the 

11 Federal level. The Executive Department isn't going to 

12 do anything it doesn't want to do anyway. Nobody can make 

13 them do it. 
14- It just seems to me we are building up a 

15 lengthy document when it is not adding a thing to it. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other comment or questions? 
IV Mr. Sayre? 

18 MR. SAYRE: I have the same reservation. I 

19 would like to have a little more elaboration on the validitjy 
of the Governor to prevent someone in the Executive branch 



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1 saying that is not good policy, this type of division of 

2 powers between the Executive, holding persons back from 

3 testifying. Is that what you are saying? 

* MR. CASE: I am sorry, I can't hear you. 

5 MR. SAYRE: If the Governor says, I don't want 

6 to testify, I don't want my department head to testify, 

* or my Budget Bureau head or anyone else on something, I 

8 don't know what, but if he says he doesn't want the person 

* to testify, he doesn't have to go over the Executive 
*" Department, does he? 

11 MR. CASE: Doesn't have to — 

12 MR. SAYRE: He would not have control over the 
** Executive Department if the Legislature wanted to go 

14 on a fishing trip every day of their session? 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean under this Section, 
*6 or under something else? 

17 MR. SAYRE: Under Subsection 7. Isn't that 

18 true? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, I am not sure I fol- 
low, but I think what Mr. Sayre has in mind is that at the 
Federal level, the Executive has taken the position, as yoi 



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know, from time to time, that the doctrine of the separation 
of powers is such that he can instruct Members of the 
Executive Department not to testify before Congress. I 
think Mr. Sayre is asking you whether that would be true 
as a matter of Maryland law if this Section were not here. 
Could the Governor say that not only he did not want to 
appear, but direct any Members of the Executive Department 
not to appear, and I think that is implicit in Mrs. Freed- 
lander's earlier question also. 

MR. CASE: I think he can do it. I don't know 
what the Legislature could do about it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I take it the purpose of this 
Section is to make it clear as a matter of Maryland con- 
stitutional lav; that that should not be the case. 

MR. CASE: That is right, that they have the 
right to call them. 

THE CHA IK-IAN: Is that your question, Mr. Sayre 

MR. SAYRE: Yes. Therefore, I have reserva- 
tions about the length to which this goes, and I don't 
think it is clear that you couldn't even subpoena the 
Governor. I think your comment should at least be, other 
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would seem to roc that the Governor ought to have some 
control over using his people so that he can get the job 
of government done in the event that the Legislature wantec 
to constantly have someone testifying before it. Suppose 
that the Comptroller was asked to testify every day of 
the session and that Comptroller is needed in the Executive 
Department? Just suppose that. How would you prevent 
that under this Article? 

MR. CASE: I don't suppose you would. 

MR. SAYRE : Don't you think you ought to have 
some provision? 

MR. CASE: I don't know how you can limit it 
and make it meaningful. 

MR. SAYRE: I think that is the problem. 
Therefore which is the worse evil? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I take it that the Committee 
feels that it would be a worse evil not to have the Legis- 
lature have the right to require the personnel to appear. 
Otherwise, they wouldn't have recommended this. 

MRS. BOTHE: This is not departure from present 
constitutional law, as I understand Section 7. The 



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Legislature now has the power to request. 

MR. CASE: That is right. 

MRS. BOTHE: This capsulizes. 

MR. CASE: Combines three Sections into one, 
that is all it does, and leaves the Governor out as a 
person who can be required to appear. 

MRS. BOTHE: Has the Governor ever been required 
to appear against his wishes? 

MR. CASE: Not to my knowledge. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette? 

DR. BURDETTE: I think it does something else. 
I believe I am for it. It seems to me that the old 

Constitution gives not only to the Governor, but major 

go to 
department heads, the right to/the Legislature. The Com- 
mittee's draft does not give those department heads the 
right, save as they are designated by the Governor. 

I think that may be a good thing, but I presume 
that has been considered by the Committee. 

MR. CASE: That is correct. That was considered 
and written to cover that point. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Jenkins? 



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1 DR. JENKINS: As a Member of the Committee, I 

* felt this was in a practical sense superfluous, but I de- 
3 ferred to the legal minds on the Committee. I still do 

* not conceive that it would be a practical difficulty 

5 with the budget, and this is related only to budget, for 

6 the Legislature or the General Assembly to have anyone 
^ come in to defend a budget item. I really feel this is 
° superfluous, but there may be some legal connotations 

* here of which I am not aware. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: They have a pretty strong sanc- 

11 tion if they fail to appear. They simply don't pass that 
1 item in the budget. That is pretty apt to make a depart- 
** ment head appear when requested. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other comments or questions? 

*5 Mr. Sayre? 

16 MR. SAYRE: I have reservations on this. I 

I"? would like to move that some form of limitation on the 

*® scope of this legislative power be considered and that 

* 9 it be submitted back to the Committee for redrafting. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? Any second? 
The motion fails for want of a second. 



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Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: I would just make a motion that 
the entire Section 7 be eliminated. I don't think it 
adds anything. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? Is there 
discussion? 

MR. MILLER: I think I made my view clear. The 
Governor can't be made to come if he doesn't want to 
anyhow, and if it is his budget, I can't conceive of his 
not sending somebody to defend it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

MR. CASE: I think it is only fair to say that 
the Committee feels that this is an important, not a 
critical, but it is an important provision to be retained 
in the Constitution, for two reasons: 

First, the one that has been suggested earlier, 
namely, that it does give constitutional authority for 
Members of the General Assembly to call people who are in 
the Governor's coterie to appear and explain the budget. 
Without this provision, it could be contended that the 
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1 prevail, and it could very easily prevail, then it would 

2 seem to me that the Legislature, despite the practicalities 
5 that have been suggested here by Dale Adkins , might indeed 

4 be shut off from additional information and information 

5 it should have. 

6 Secondly, the second clause is equally as mean- 

7 ingful, because that says that the Governor shall have the 

8 right to appear, and if the separation of powers doctrine 

9 is presented to its ultimate, it might well be that the 

10 Governor could, or his people could be denied the right 

11 to appear, so on both counts, the Section gives an easy 

12 flow of rights and privileges between the Governor and 

13 the Legislature and to me is a very meaningful and helpful 

14 Section of the Constitution, and to just eliminate it 

15 because you want to shorten the document to me makes no . 

16 sense at all. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

18 MR. GENTRY: Section 13 of the Legislative 

19 Department says, The General Assembly shall have the power 

20 to compel attendance and testimony of witnesses and the 

21 production of records and papers, et cetera, before any 



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* committee, even a committee of the General Assembly. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: We voted that down, didn't we? 

3 MR. GENTRY: We made some changes. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: The Report is to come up 

MR. SCANLAN: After lunch, I find myself 

6 agreeing with Mr. Case. I think the reasons he gave are 
' perfectly valid, and I would say as a result of passing 
8 Subsection 6, where the Legislature is now placed under 
a budget gun, there is a special need to make sure that 
the Legislature has all the resources, all the means of 
obtaining information about a budget that it must pass 
within a time certain. 
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment or discus- 

sion? 

15 MR. CLAGETT: Only that Mr. Scanlan is dying' 

*° violently. 
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Styre? 

MR. SAYRE: I would like to move -- 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: There is a motion before us, a 

20 

motion to delete Section 7. 

Mr. Sykes? 

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MR. SYKES : I would like to offer an amendment 
to that motion, which would restore the last clause, so 
that there would be an express power to the Governor any 
person he designates of the right to appear. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept the amendment, 
Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: There is no objection to it. I 
think it is surplus, too. I am in favor of it . I think 
the Governor -- I can't picture the Legislature refusing 
to listen to the Governor. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I don't remember who seconded. 

MR. GENTRY: I would not accept the amendment. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do jou want to move an amendment, 



Mr. Sykes? 



to amend? 



MR. SYKES : I would like to move the amendment. 
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second to the motion 



MR. SAYRE: Second. 



THE CHAIRMAN: All right, discussion on the 
motion to amend. The motion to amend is to amend the 
existing motion so as to eliminate in substance all of 



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Section 7, except the last clause, the Governor or such 
other person as he designates shall have the right to 
* appear for the purpose of discussing the budget bill, 
et cetera. 

MR. SYKES: I want to state the reason for the 
amendment . I believe that the power of the Governor or 



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the people he designated to appear before the Legislature 

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and explain an item of the budget is an important power 

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to preserve explicitly. The first part of the existing 
language can cause trouble in my judgment, and is really 
unnecessary. The Legislature has ample power to cut 
appropriations and if the Executive Department doesn't 
cooperate with the Legislature, the Legislature has a very 

adequate weapon and more than likely the Executive, if 

15 

interested in getting the budget passed, will accept in- 
vitations from the Legislature to come down and testify. 
However, when you go beyond the power of the 
Legislature to cut the budget as a sanction and you make 
it a positive duty on the part of anybody in the Executive 
Department and maybe even the Governor under this language 
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if you go beyond existing law which limits this to people 
who are expending money or applying for money, this means 
anybody in the department, and they can be made to come 
down and testify with respect to a budget bill; they 
might be asked to get into matters which would raise ques- 
tions of executive privilege and which would get very 
sticky. I think it is unnecessary, it is complicated, 
subject to abuse, and there is a distinct difference in 
my mind between the two separate clauses, and that is why 
I made the suggestion that they be separated. 

THE CHARIMAN: Mr. Case, do you want to make 
any further comment on the amendment? 

MR. CASE: I would like to ask Mr. Sykes whether 
he would have the same objection if the words, expending 
or applying for State monies, if that were put back in, you 
would not have the same argument, would you? 

MR. SYKES: My argument certainly would be 
bss strong. 

MR. CASE: Because I would have no objection 
to putting those words in, but I do think, reiterating 
the position 1 earlier took, that the Legislature ought 



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* to have the right, in view of the fact that it is repre- 

2 s enting the people and this is the people's money that is 

3 being spent, it ought to have the right to call on the 

* people who are applying for and are going to spend the 

5 State money to come down and tell the General Assembly 

6 what is going to be done with this money. I think it is a 

* very fundamental right. 

MR. SYKES: As a practical matter, I think 



8 



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more palatable to me, but I don't think it would make it 



11 completely palatable. I think the objections would still 

12 

hold, because as a practical matter, the Legislature has 

** this right, since it can say, if you don't come down, we 

1^ aren't going to give you the money you want. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on the 

16 amendment? 

17 DR. BURDETTE: A parliamentary inquiry. How 

18 do I vote to preserve my preference for the language that 
*' the Committee has, preferably with Mr. Case's amendment 

but if I can't get that, I would like to have at least 

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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I would suggest you vote against 

2 the amendment and vote against the amended motion if that 

3 is what you want to do. To make that clear, a vote in 

4 favor of the amendment is not a vote to amend the Section. 

5 It is merely a vote to amend the motion. Are you ready 

6 for the question? 

7 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I have another question. I 

8 would like to ask Judge Adkins whether, under the Execu- 

9 tive Department, a provision for messages and reports to 
10 the Legislature would not cover some of this. 

H - JUDGE ADKINS: I was thinking about that. My 

12 immediate answer would be No, without having given.it very 

13 careful consideration, because I think this implies the 

14 right to appear and testify before the committees; the 

15 right to send a message or to inform the State of the State 

16 would involve insofar as the whole Legislature is concerned 

17 That is just an offhand opinion. 

18 THE CHAIKMAN: Are you ready for the question? 

19 The question arises on Mr. Sykes ' motion to amend Mr. 

20 Miller's motion. The motion is to amend the pending 
motion so that it will be to eliminate the first part of 



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1 Subsection 7 and retain the last clause. A vote in favor 

2 of this motion is not a vote in favor of making that 

3 change in Subsection 7. Is that clear to everyone? All 
* those in favor of the amendment, please signify by a show 

5 of hands. 

6 MR. BROOKS: Eleven. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Contrary? 

8 MR. BROOKS: Six. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried, 11 to 6. 
The question now arises on the amended motion. Are you 

H ready for the question? 

12 DR. BURDETTE: Is the amended motion including 

13 the modifying language that Mr. Case is willing to accept 

14 or not? I myself hope so. I will vote for it in 

15 either case. What are we voting for? 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it the modifying language 

17 would not now be pertinent, because that pertained to the 

18 first part that has been eliminated as I understood it. 

19 DR. BURDETTE: I didn't think we did. I thought 
we were not eliminating anything. 

MR. CASE: The first part is included in the 



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motion to eliminate. 






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DR. BURDETTE: I meant in the motion to 






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eliminate, and making the motion that we eliminate only the 






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first part. Now, I want to vote against eliminating the 






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first part. 






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THE CHAIRMAN: I may have misunderstood the 






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purpose of the added language. The motion to amend was to 






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eliminate the first clause of the Section so that the 






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motion now would be that Section 7, instead of reading 






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as it does now, would in substance say merely that the 






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Governor, or any such person as he shall designate, shall 






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have the right to appear for the purpose of explaining 






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the budget bill or any item therein contained. 






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DR. BURDETTE: No. 






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THE CHAIRMAN: It was my understanding that the 






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language suggested by Mr. Case would have pertained to 






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the first clause, eliminated clause. 






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MR. CASE: That is right. 






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mentary situation was we had a motion to eliminate the 






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THE CHAIRMAN: That is right. 

DR. BURDETTE: I understood Mr. Sykes made a 
motion to eliminate, to amend that motion to eliminate 
only the first part. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct. 

DR. BURDETTE: Of Section 7, and V7e were voting 
on his amendment. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct. 

DR. BURDETTE: Now, we will have to vote on 
the question of whether we do any elimination in 7? 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct. 

DR. BURDETTE: I want to vote to eliminate 
nothing in 7. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Then you would vote against 
the motion. The motion now is to substitute for the 
present Subsection 7 a Section providing in substance 
only that the Governor or any such person as he shall 
designate shall have the right to appear for the purpose 
of explaining the budget bill or any item therein con- 
tained. A vote in favor would amend the Section in that 
manner. A vote opposed would retain Subsection 7 in its 



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present form. Are you ready for the question? All those 
in favor of the motion as amended, please signify by a 
show of hands. Contrary? The motion is lost, 6 to 11. 

Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: Now, may I make a motion to add to 
the first clause the language, expending or applying 
State monies, to carry that over? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Where would that go, Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: That would go in the first clause, 
any person of the State Government, I guess after the 
word , Government . 

THE CHAIRMAN: What would be the language added? 

MR. CASE: In Section 7: Expending or apply- 
ing for State monies. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Expending or what? 

MR. CASE: Expending or applying for State 
monies. That is the language. We can smooth it out later. 
That is what you have in mind, isn't it? 

MR. SYKES: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is thae a second? 

MR. SAYRE: Second. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes has the floor. 

MR. SYKES: I waive any debate. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre? 

MR. SAYRE: I would like to ask Mr. Sykes if he 
would allow an amendment to that, which I would insert, 
any person other than the Governor? 

MR. SYKES: Yes, I would accept that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Then, I take it that the, other 
than the Governor, would come after the phrase, monies, 
that has just been added, would it not? 

MR. CLAGETT: After person, wouldn't it? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I hardly think you would say, 
any person other than the Governor in any department, 
would you? 

MR. SAYRE: I realize the problem. 

MR. SYKES : In any person in any department, 
branch, bureau, or agency of the State Government, et 
cetera, then after the word, monies, you would put, other 
than the Governor in parentheses, I think. 

MR. SAYRE: That is fine. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You accept it, Mr. Sykes? 






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1 MR. SYKES: Yes. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to say anything 

3 about it? 

MR. SYKES: No, sir. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 

6 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to 
V prolong this. It is not going to wreck the State one 

8 way or. another, but I think the Members of the Commission, 

9 I would like them to bear in mind the fact that such pro- 
visions as this could cause great embarrassment to the 

H executives. 1 had the privilege in the past of sitting 

12 a great many years on the Federal Appropriation Committee, 

13 and if for political reasons somebody wants to make the 

14 Governor unhappy, they could call in somebody who has been 

15 overruled by the Bureau of the Budget and say, General 

16 So-and-So, or Judge So-and-So, would you have done this. 

17 Oh, no, he says, and it is a way of opening up a lot of 
IS political fraud which probably doesn't do the public any 

good . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, do you want to make 



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MR. CASE: The only comment I want to make is 
that both of these points that have been made are exactly 
what the Committee intended, and if the Commission would 
feel more comfortable with this language than the way we 
wrote it, certainly we have no objection. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment or discus- 
sion? Are you ready for the question? The question 
arises on the motion to amend Subsection 7 by adding in 
Line 3, after the word, State Government, the words, 
expending or applying for State monies . (other than the 
Governor .) 

Are you ready for the question? All those in 
favor, signify by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion 
carries, 7 to 6. 

Is there any further comment, discussion or 
motion with respect to Subsection 7? Then, we will move 
to Subsection 8 on Page 29. 

MR. CASE: To show you how amenable the Chair- 
man is, I could have defeated that motion if I voted. 

Section 8, Subsection 8, the last truly sub- 
stantive provision, deals with supplemental appropriation 



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bills. Bear in mind that before lunch V7e were talking 
about amendments or additions that the Governor might 
make, and we said that we would talk about what happens 
to them if they are tacked onto the budget bill, and then 
the budget bill becomes law by operation of, or by reason 
of inaction by the Constitution. We said that those 
supplemental, or those amendments would then become sup- 
plemental appropriation bills, and they would be controlled 
by Subsection 8. Now, Subsection 8 deals with another 
type of supplemental appropriation bill, and really this, 
what I have been talking about, is minor thrust of the 
Section. The major thrust is the desire or need of the 
State Government to appropriate additional funds after 
the budget bill has become law. 

Bear in mind, I have said earlier, that all of 
the information that the Committee could get stated very 
definitely that no money bills should pass until the budget 
bill has gone through and become law, and this Section 8 
continues that provision as the first statement and then 
says, or provides for procedures allowing for supplemental 
appropriation bills, either of the general kind, namely, 



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* for new State programs, or for the exceptional case of 

2 where a supplement has been offered by the Governor to 

3 the budget bill, the bill has become law by inaction and 

* the supplement then is transferred to this Section for 
5 its procedural life. 

" I will now read it. It is somewhat long: 

' Neither house shall consider other appropriations until 

° the budget bill has become law. That is what the present 

s Constitution says, and is the very important thing which 
I emphasized a minute ago. It should be retained. 



10 



Any such appropriation shall be embodied in a 

12 

separate bill limited to some single work, object or 

** purpose as clearly defined therein, and such bill shall 
■*•* be called a supplementary appropriation bill. That is 
15 the existing law and present Subsection 8, which if you 
1° are following it with your red book, is on Page 32. 
H Each supplementary appropriation bill, includ- 

1° ing amendments or supplements to the budget bill which 
19 have not become law, shall provide the revenue necessary 
to pay the appropriation by a tax, direct or indirect, to 
be levied and collected as shall be directed in said bill, 

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and, in addition, in the case of amendments or supple- 
ments provided for by Subsection 4 of this Section, by 
funds available therefor in conformity with estimates 
made by the Governor, such estimates being subject to 
Subsection 5 of this Section. 

Let me explain that. The law now is that each 
supplemental appropriation bill must provide the revenues 
to pay the appropriation by a tax. That is to say, 
every bill has to contain its own tax for that specific 
purpose. That was the heart, one of the hearts of the 
Goodnow Amendment in the 1916 Budget Amendment which has 
been in our law ever since. We may have added to that, 
though, bear in mind, this provision that says that where 
the Governor has suggested a supplement to correct an 
omission like that, and then the budget bill becomes 
effective by operation of law through inaction, that sup- 
plement goes over and becomes a supplemental appropriation 
bill. Now, assume that the Governor has funded his sup- 
plement by an increase in the revenue estimates, which 
is usually the way it is done. Generally speaking, the 
supplemental budget bill of the Governor is funded in this 



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way. As a matter of fact, I can think of no other sup- 
plemental appropriation bill sent down by the Governor's 
office that was funded in any other way in recent or 
modern times than through an increase in revenue estimates, 
but what this provision says is that that same thing will 
carry over and that, as far as the supplement is concerned, 
which now becomes a supplemental appropriation bill, it 
doesn't have to be funded by a tax, but can instead be 
funded by a change in the revenue estimates made by the 
Governor . 

That is, in effect, what it says, and with 
reference to Section 5 at the end, that is the Section 
which deals with the message, I think. This Section 
makes it clear that you cannot do by supplemental appro- 
priation bill that which you cannot do under Section 5. 

The next sentence is, No supplementary appro- 
priation bill shall become law unless it be passed in 
each house by a vote of a majority of the whole number of 
members elected, and the yeas and nays recorded on its 
final passage, and such bill shall be presented to the 
Governor as provided in Section 17 of Article 2 of the 



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1 Constitution, and thereafter all of the provisions of 

2 said Section shall apply. This, of course, is a state- 

3 ment taken from the present Constitution, and I assume 

4 will need a recasting, in view of the, of what has been 

t 

5 done by this Commission, but the substance or the meaning 

6 of it is this: That the bill has to be passed by con- 

7 stitutional majority, what we call constitutional majority 

8 and what I understand the Commission has already decided 

9 shall be the rule, that all laws have to be passed by 

10 constitutional majority. 

11 Secondly, that supplemental appropriation bills 

12 shall be subject to veto by the Governor. 

13 The powers and rights of the Governor and the 

14 General Assembly specified in Subsection 7 of this Section, 

15 which is the one we just had all the debate on, shall 

16 apply to any supplementary appropriation bill, which 

17 seems to follow, of course. If the Governor and General 

18 Assembly respectively have the rights that we have dis- 

19 cussed with respect to the budget bill, obviously they 

20 ought to have it with respect to the supplemental appro- 

21 priation bill. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, with respect to the 

last question, is there any objection if the Committee 
3 on Style deems it proper to eliminate that last sentence 

from this Section and simply add into Subsection 7 the 
5 phrase, supplementary appropriation bill? 
° MR. CASE: No, just so that the General Assem- 

' bly and the Governor and the Executive Department have 
° the same rights with respect to supplementary appropria- 
9 tion bills as they have with respect to the budget bill. 
10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

Mr. Sayre? 

MR. SAYRE: If the General Assembly moves to 
■^ have a bond issue, that is its own source of revenue, I 

14 gather? 

15 MR. CASE: Bond issues? 

^ MR. SAYRE: I am thinking now where the General 

■*-' Assembly decides that this is the course of action to 

initiate, to have the State have a bond issue, that would 

■*- 9 be a way of meeting the expenditures required, wouldn't 
20 

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MR. CASE: Bond issues — this doesn't involve 

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capital spending, you understand that? 

MR. SAYRE: Yes. I am wondering how this does 
keep away. There is a clear distinction throughout here, 
is there, as to whether it is capital expenditure and 
what is a new tax revenue measure? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think for the purposes of the 
record, Mr. Case, when you said capital expenditures, 
you meant capital expenditures that aren't funded out 
of the general Treasury? 

MR. CASE: That is right, funded by bond issues 

MR. SAYRE: And this is clear? I am just ask- 
ing, that this is strictly a Treasury matter only? 

MR. CASE: That is right. Bond issues, as you 
recall, are taken care of by Section 34, which we dis- 
cussed at College Park last time. 

MR. SAYRE: Right. Okay. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think Section 1 would answer 
your question, the General Assembly shall not appropriate 
any money out of the Treasury except by, et cetera. 

MR. SAYRE: I know this is jumping the gun, 
but when you have an emergency session, do you still 



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require that whatever is done in the emergency session 
requires additional monies, and they have a source of 
money? Can an emergency bill be passed that doesn't 
have a source to fund it? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: The question is, you are speaking 
now to Section 9? 

MR. SAYRE: Yes, but it is related to this. 

MR. CASE: Section 9 merely says, if you want 
to consider it, I will read it, The General Assembly may 
consider any emergency appropriation at an extraordinary 
sess ion . 

This is the substance of the last clause in the 
second sentence of present Section 14. It makes it clear 
that emergency appropriations can be considered at special 
sess ions . 

THE CHAIRMAN: But they are subject to all the 
rules of the remaining subdivisions. 

MR. SAYRE: They are subject? 

MR. CASE: Yes. 

MR. SAYRE: Okay. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 



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MR. SYKES: To what extent does the power of 



* the Governor to fund supplemental appropriations 
by increased revenue estimates impair the protection 

* built into the requirement that there be no deficit finan 

6 cing? 

7 MR. CASE: Well, there isn't any deficit if he 
comes up with an estimate that covers the appropriation. 
There is no budget deficit. There may eventually be 
a cash deficit, but actually even in its worst times, 
Maryland has been cash rich. It has had a tremendous 
amount of cash balances. 

13 MR. SYKES: You don't see this as a problem? 

14 MR. CASE: No. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

16 MR. GENTRY: If we have as now proposed a 
*' Section in the Legislative Article, Section 15, which 
1 reads, No bill shall become lav; unless passed in each 

house by a majority of the members and on its passage the 
yea and nay votes — 

THE CHAIRMAN: May I interrupt you? Mr. Case 

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pointed out in his presentation that this language would 
have to be changed by the Committee on Style to conform 
to it, so that you probably would not need the detail 
that is referred to in this Section. 

MR. GENTRY: Excuse me. You could save about 
five lines . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? Are 
there any comments? 

DR. BURDETTE: I have two questions: Does the 
Committee intend by this Subsection that the General 
Assembly initiate a supplementary bill? 

MR. CASE: Yes. 

DR. BURDETTE: The second question relates to 
this budget estimate arrangement. Why wouldn't it be 
worthy of consideration that these supplemental provided 
for by Subsection 4 either be within the budget estimates 
or provided for by tax? Do you make a point that they are 
always of late in a budget estimate but maybe of late 
doesn't mean forever? I don't know. 

MR. CASE: This does that, in effect", because 
it says that — it defines the supplement, let's call it 



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1 the supplement as distinguished from supplemental appro- 

2 priation bill. The amendment which the Governor has 

3 tacked on becomes a supplemental appropriation bill by 
* definition, and this Section says that it can be funded 

5 by a tax or by the revenue estimate. The difference is 

6 that the supplemental appropriation bill started by the 

7 General Assembly or initiated by the General Assembly 

8 cannot be funded by a change in revenue estimate. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Dr. Burdette's question 
*0 then goes to one of language. He reads, and I did too, 
** that with respect to the supplemental bill, you would 

have to fund it by tax and by the revenue; you use the 

13 words, and in addition, in the sixth line from the bottom. 

14 I understood your comment just now to mean that in the 

15 case of a supplementary, not a supplementary appropriation 

16 bill but a supplement to the budget that becomes one it 

17 could be funded either by a tax. 

18 MR. CASE: That is the intention. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: It should be, or. Does that 
answer your question? 

DR. BURDETTE: Yes. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder if V7e couldn't sub- 
stitute the word, on, for, in addition? 

MR. CLAGETT: It would be, or, in the alterna- 
tive, by. 

MR. CASE: That would be better. I accept 
that . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Can we make that tentatively, 
subject to the Committee on Style coming up with something 
better? 

MR. CASE: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Or in the alternative, instead 
of, and in addition. 

MR. CASE: That is the idea. It gives both 
methods, appropriations. 

MR. SYKES: That is a minor matter. I think 
or is much better than, in the alternative. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Leave the resolution to the 
Style Committee. Any further questions or comment on 
this Section? 

Mr. Case, I have a question, and I haven't 
the remotest idea what the answer should be. In the 



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second sentence, Each supplementary appropriation bill, 
including amendments or supplements to the budget bill 
which have not become lav; shall provide the revenue neces- 
sary to pay the appropriation by tax direct or indirect. 
Is that term broad enough to include some sort of revenue 
funding, a toll, for instance, or an assessment, such as 
you have in special assessment districts? 

MR. CASE: Well, certainly a toll is a tax. 
It has been held in some context that a special assess- 
ment is not a tax, V7here you are dealing with roads and 
things of that nature, but they only come into play 
when you are dealing with capital as distinguished from 
operating items. I can't visualize of any place where 
you would have a special assessment on land that would 
fund this kind of provision and other than special 
assessment on land, every time the Government takes some- 
thing away from you, it is a tax, in the broad basic generic 



sense . 



THE CHAIRMAN: That is what the Committee in- 



tended here? 



MR. CASE: That is right. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre? 

MR. SAYRE: Perhaps this is a more appropriate 
question to ask in the next Section. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The one you spoke to me about 
earlier? 

MR. SAYRE: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No. I think it would be better 
to wait. Any further discussion of Subsection 8? If not, 
we will proceed to Subsection 9, Page 32. 

MR. CASE: These are just what we have left 
out. There have been some things we left out along the 
way I haven't mentioned. I don't know how far we want 
to get into this. I thought we finished with Subsection 
9. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned it in connection 
with an earlier one. That was all. 

MR. CASE: If anybody has any questions about 
it, I will be glad to answer them. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I had the same concern that I 
think it was Mr. Sayre expressed, and I take it that what 
you mean here is to say simply that the General Assembly 



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may consider any supplementary appropriation bill, not 
a regular budget bill and to remove any doubt, wouldn't 
it be better simply to say, instead of emergency appro- 
priation, to say, any supplementary appropriation bill? 
In other words , I take it that it is not the purpose to 
infer that a special session could not consider a sup- 
plementary appropriation bill that wa s not an emergency. 

MR. CASE: Special session wouldn't have an 
opportunity to have a supplementary appropriation bill 
because it would never have a budget bill, and therefore 
there could be no supplemental, nothing to supplement. 
All this says is that it gives the General Assembly the 
right to appropriate money for special sessions. 

THE CHAIRMAN: This is just the point that 
I am trying to make. Do you mean to say that the Legis- 
lature would not have the power to have, or to introduce 
a supplementary appropriation bill that would be indepen- 
dent of a budget? In other words, in a special session? 

MR. CASE: Special session is called to act 
on one specific thing, and I think very definitely it 
should not be allowed to go ahead and have the right to 



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introduce new appropriation bills. This would open a 
Pandora's box. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That one thing might be some- 
thing that would involve a supplementary appropriation 
bill. 

MR. CASE: I don't follow you because if there 
is no budget bill, there is nothing to supplement. There 
is no budget bill. It goes down in a special session. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I understand that. Suppose 
you had an emergency arise and the Governor called a 
special session of the Legislature. Wouldn't you neces- 
sarily, if you were going to appropriate any money, have 
to do it by supplemental appropriation bill? 

MR. CASE: I don't know how you could supple- 
ment something. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I realise that, except as I 
understood it in Subsection 8, any bill that provides 
an appropriation and isn't the budget bill is by defini- 
tion a supplementary appropriation bill. 

MR. CASE: A supplemental appropriation bill is £ 
bill, is a money bill, which is supplementary to the 



budget M4 h-. — Now, J^li^ ^ b ^^^^^ujc] what i think is 

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this, that what this Section says, in effect, is that if 
you have a special session, these rules, 1 to 8 , et seq , 
are applicable. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

MR. CASE: That is what it really means. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Suppose you had a good disaster 
and the Governor called a session of the Legislature 
to provide aid to the affected area, and they had to do 
it by money. Wouldn't this necessarily be by supplemental 
appropriation bill? There would be no budget before the 
Legislature. 

MR. CASE: We are getting all tangled up in 
words. Let me read to you what 14 says, so that we can 
have it all before us: In the event of any inconsistency 
between any of the provisions of this Section, and any of 
the other provisions of the Constitution, the provisions 
of this Section shall prevail. Obviously, that is in- 
appropriate for the Constitution. 

Nothing herein shall in any manner affect the 
provisions of Section 34 of Article III of the Constitu- 
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or of any laws heretofore or hereafter passed pursuant 
thereof. Now, we get to it: Or be construed as prevent- 
ing the Governor from calling an extraordinary session 
of the General Assembly, or as preventing the General 
Assembly at such extraordinary session from considering 
any emergency appropriation or appropriations. 

Now, Mr. Sachs wrote this Section. That is 
his contribution to this. 

THE CHAIRMAN: If I may pursue this a moment, 
Mr. Case, because I think your next to last comment is 
the one that troubles me about this. The question I 
have in my mind is whether the use of the words here, 
emergency appropriation, or, the use of similar words 
in the present Constitution, connote the idea that the 
Legislature can make an appropriation out of the general 
Treasury other than by a budget bill or a supplementary 
appropriation bill, and I understood you to say — 

MR. CASE: It is my feeling that they cannot . • 

THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Therefore, since at 
this emergency session you would not have a budget, it 
would necessarily mean that any appropriation would have 



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to be by supplementary appropriation bill, which would 
bring into play all the safeguards that you have thrown 
around such a bill. Now my question, therefore, is 
wouldn't this be made abundantly clear simply by striking 
the words, emergency appropriation, and saying, supple- 
mentary appropriation bill? 

MR. CASE: Sure. 

MR. CLAGETT: I don't know that I can quite 
agree with the answer given. I think there is a broader 
connotation to the word, emergency appropriation, and 
there can be an appropriation which is neither a supple- 
ment nor is it supplementary. 

THE CHAIRMAN: This is true. This is what 
troubled me about the language, but the Committee has made 
clear that there is no possibility under the draft that 
they propose to provide such an appropriation, except in 
one of those two manners . 

MR. CLAGETT: I don't think that is right. 

THE CHAIRMAN: This is implicit in the question 
I asked the Committee on Section 2. 

MR. CLAGETT: Because there is that question 



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in my mind, I would move that they further consider Sub- 
section 9. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second to the motion? 

MR. SAYRE: Your motion? 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, Mr. Clagett's motion. 

MR. GENTRY: Second. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett, do you want to 
say anything more? 

MR. CLAGETT: I think the discussion has pointed 
up just what we mean by the motion to have the Committee 
further study and clarify. It is my understanding that 
the use of the language here is broader and not restricted 
only to supplementary bills. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I think Mr. Case ought 
to comment on it, and the crux of this comes down to the 
qjestion that was asked with respect to Section 2, that if 
it is not provided for in the budget, it cannot come out 
of the general Treasury; that it must be by a supple- 
mentary appropriation bill, which must provide a tax, 
which would mean to me that in a special session, to meet 
an emergency, the Legislature would have to provide the 



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1 tax to raise the money. 

2 Now, is that the position of the Committee? 

3 MR. CASE: That is absolutely correct, 

4: Mr. Chairman, and let me say that the Committee doesn't 

5 need to consider this any more, because I have considered 

6 it and right now, and the answer is this: That the way 

7 the Committee looked at this whole program is that there 

8 should not be an opportunity for deficit financing in this 

9 State. Let's start with that. 

10 Now, that being the case, whether it be the 

11 budget bill itself, an amendment to the budget bill 

12 which the Governor submits, a supplemental appropriation 

13 bill which the Governor submits, a supplemental appro- 

14 priation bill which a Member of the General Assembly 

15 thinks about, in any of these, in any and all of these 

16 cases , there has to either be a tax to support the 

17 appropriation or there has to be enough money in the 

18 Treasury, based upon sound estimates made by the Executive 

19 to support the appropriation. When you come to this type 

20 of a situation at an emergency session, it is my feeling 

21 that the same rule should apply, because if you didn't 



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apply it, then you could vitiate the whole program by 
merely calling the session, calling the General Assembly 
back after a few days rest and going ahead and opening 
the floodgates. To me that would not be right. 

MR. SCANLAN: I gather, Dick, that this is 
somewhat a clarification over old Subsection 14. That 
language certainly could be construed as relieving an 
extraordinary session from the restrictions that otherwise 
apply, and your language in the new Section 9 makes it 
perfectly clear that the regular restrictions on funding, 
financing, et cetera, applies, is that correct? 

MR. CASE: That is right. This may be some- 
what inappropriately worded, but this is the idea. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes? 

MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, can I suggest as a 
solution to the problem here that it doesn't promote 
clarity to call something a supplemental appropriation 
which is not a supplemental appropriation. You have a 
special circumstance here. In an emergency or extra- 
ordinary session, you don't have a budget because the 
budget is limited to the regular session. You don't have 



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a supplemental appropriation because you don't supplement 
anything. What you are talking about is the manner of 
making an emergency appropriation, and what I think we 
want to say is that the Legislature may consider an 
emergency appropriation at an extraordinary session, and 
it shall make it in the same manner as it makes the sup- 
plemental appropriation, or handles the supplemental 
appropriation bill in the regular session, but this raises 
an additional question, which hasn't yet been discussed. 
The extraordinary session can have before it a proposal 
by the Governor for funding, or a proposal made by the 
Legislature. The proposal made by the Governor is not 
a budget, but the question would arise as to whether or 
not the Legislature would have to dispose of the proposal 
by the Governor before it could handle the thing by 
itself, whether the same relationship should exist between 
the Governor's proposal and the Legislature's proposals, 
as exist between the budgec and the supplemental appropria' 
tion bill. It seems to me that that would have to be 
thought through, but that what we are really talking about 
is the manner of making an extraordinary appropriation, 



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which is a new bird, and is something not like anything elt 
here and shouldn't be called what it isn't. 

THE CHAIRMAN: May I comment? 

MR. SYKES : Surely. I made no motion or any- 



thing. 



THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me that it is still 



a supplementary appropriation bill. It may not be sup- 
plementing a budget then currently before the Legislature, 
but it certainly is supplementing the budget for the 
current fiscal year, but the real reason is it seems to me 
that Subsection 6 or 7, I think, says in effect, that 
any bill that is not a budget bill and appropriates money 
is by definition a supplementary appropriation bill. 

MR. SYKES: I don't read it that way. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think it says precisely that. 
I think those are the words. Which Section is it, Dick? 

MR. CASE: For supplemental, 8. 

MR. SYKES: I don't read 6 or 7 that way. 

MR. CASE: Eight. 

MR. SAYRE: Mr. Chairman? 

TH2 CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre. 



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MR. SAYRE: If you go through the full thing, 
I interpret it exactly the way you do and the use of the 
word, emergency, is really a carryover from the old Con- 
stitution, not needed here. An extraordinary session 
would be interpreted as emergency, and the only question 
here is, was the General Assembly called to consider a 
supplementary appropriation or while in an extraordinary 
session, they have the right to bring up a supplementary 
appropriation, if they so wish, is that right? 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is not Mr. Clagett's 
question or what is implicit in his amendment. The Com- 
mittee, as I understand it, has changed the Section so 
it now reads, The General Assembly may consider any sup- 
plementary appropriation bill at any extraordinary session 
Mr. Clagett's motion is to have that reconsidered by the 
Committee, not on a matter of phraseology but on the 
principle that the Legislature at an extraordinary session 
ought to have the right to make an appropriation without 
providing the revenue to fund it. Is there any discus- 
sion' on that question, which is before us? 

MR. SAYRE: With regard to that, then, I would 



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simply say this holds the Legislature to be responsible, 
whereas to leave it openended allows for irresponsibility. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to ask one question 
of Mr. Case. I think this is right. I suppose the Legis- 
lature could raise money by a bond issue and appropriate 
it at such a special session. 

MR. CASE: Yes, but all the safeguards of 34 
would then come into effect with respect to that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Any further discussion? 
Are you ready for the question? The question, then, 
arises on Mr. Clagett's motion to recommit the Subsection 
9 to the Committee for further study, for the purpose of 
considering whether the Legislature ought to have the 
right to make appropriations at an extraordinary session 
without being subject to the requirement that it provide 
the revenue. Are you ready for the question? 

MR. GENTRY: May I ask one question? In re- 
consideration of this, is Mr. Case going to make any 
change along the lines you have suggested? 

THE CHAIRMAN: He has already agreed to that 
change, as I understand it. Any further discussion? 



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Are you ready for the question? All those in favor, sig- 
nify by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion is lost, 
4 to 13. 

MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, we have trouble 
hearing down here. VJould you read how it reads now, 
please, sir? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Section 9 now reads: The Gen- 
eral Assembly may consider any supplementary appropriation 
bill at any extraordinary session. 

Section 10 -- there is no Section 10. 

MR. CASE: It might stun everybody to realize 
this. That is the Report. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? Mr. 
Sayre has a motion. 

MR. SAYRE: Mr. Chairman, I have already talked 
to the people. This is a simple motion. I move that 
the Committee on State Finance and Taxation be requested 
to submit a Report on the subject of dedicated or 
earmarked taxes with appropriate constitutional language. 
This motion is intended to apply to the future measures 
having a taxing effect emanating from any budget bill, 



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and it is not intended to encompass use tolls, such as 
employed for toll bridges, highways or capital expendi- 
tures when outside the Treasury. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

MR. CLAGETT: I will second it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, can you indicate what 
the position of the Committee is on this question? 

MR. CASE: Well, the position of the Committee 
on this question is one of not so much of protestation 
as prostration. We are pretty well on our backs and up 
against a deadline. Let me first tell you what Phil is 
talking about, or at least try to explain it, and then 
suggest to you what I have said to him and also what 
is before the Committee. 

In a number of State Constitutions, there are 
provisions which say, in effect, that the General Assem- 
bly, or the legislative body, cannot dedicate funds to 
any given purpose, and I think by and large that this is 
a good provision, because it prevents the rigid structuring 
of government through various revenue sources. 

Nov;, we do have in this State an example of 



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dedication, which no matter what we did here in this 
Constitution couldn't be changed, and that is the dedica- 
tion of the motor vehicle revenues to the payment of the 
State Highway bonds. The State Highway bonds, there are 
about 300 million of those bonds outstanding right now, 
and they are serviced by the State Roads Commission's 
share of the gasoline tax, that is to say, State Roads 
Commission gets 50 per cent of the gasoline tax, and that 
50 per cent, along with the titling tax and finances and 
forfeitures are dedicated by law and by contract to ser- 
vice these bonds. In about a month from now, the seventh 
cent, all of which goes to the State Roads Commission, 
will be dedicated to a new issue of bonds, so that all 
of your gasoline taxes are dedicated funds. They are all 
dedicated to the servicing of outstanding bonds. This is 
a valid contract between the bond holders and the State, 
and could not be breached by a new Constitution or any- 
thing else, since that contract is protected by the con- 
tract clause of the Federal Constitution, but there are 
other dedicated funds that we have in the State; the 
University of Maryland has dedicated funds and then the 



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myriad of boards and agencies, such as the Hairdressers 
Board, et cetera, have what they call special funds. 
They are not called dedicated funds but they are special 
funds which mean, in effect, that these agencies finance 
themselves through the fees they collect. 

This is a broad subject, and is one that 
would require an intensive study. I have written to 
Mr. Sayre in response to his request that our Committee 
look into this and told him that certainly it couldn't 
be done except on a prospective basis, because of the 
argument or position I have just stated; I also told 
him that our Committee has not or had not met and indeed, 
has not met since I received his request in this area, 
and therefore I haven't had a chance to put it up to 
them. However, the Committee does have before it two 
other subjects which the Committee, or perhaps before the 
Committee which are perhaps more important than this, and 
they are Article 15 of the Declaration of Rights, in which 
I shall attempt to preserve some very old language and 
some very modern concepts, and we will talk about that, 
perhaps, at the next meeting, and all other provisions 



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of the Declaration of Rights, which flow into the tax 
area, such as the lottery, such as the special assess- 
ment afforded to farm properties, such as the sites 
of taxation, et cetera. That is in the Third Report yet 
to come, and we have discovered, unfortunately and belated- 
ly, that there is a big gap in this whole program which 
has been sort of the result of an Alphonse and Gaston 
act between Judge Adkins' Committee and mine. This deals 
with the question of an appropriate fiscal officer or agcncjy 
be designated in the Constitution to receive revenues. 
We talked today about outgo, which is very important, but 
we have not yet approached the problem of who gets the 
money in the first place, and Judge Adkins and his 
reporter and Mr. Sachs and I had dinner last night and 
discussed this matter until a fairly late hour, and this 
is going to have to be the subject, I am afraid, Mr. Chair- 
man, of a Fourth Report, so the question is really one of 
how much can you expect the poor girl to do? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

MR. CLAGETT: I am seconding Mr. Sayre's 
motion, notwithstanding the protest that I am listening 



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to from Mr . Case. 

MR. CASE: This is just a recital of fact. 

MR. CLAGETT: I protest, too, because the 
Political Subdivisions Subcommittee has recommended the 
creation of authorities and the collection of a tax by 
those authorities, and that was amended by Mr. Adkins 
to provide that the authority could collect the tax 
levied by the Legislature, by the General Assembly, and 
it seems to me it fits in squarely with the problem that 
Mr. Case is being asked to make a study of and included 
in just his protest in having to do that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? 

MR. CLAGETT: We don't feel qualified to do it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre? 

MR. SAYRE: If no deadline is set and we 
simply ask for timely submission to this Commiss ion of 
material on that subject, that would satisfy me as long 
as we get it before our attention. I am pleased with 
the State of Maryland now, but I am worried about where 
we might go if we don't have such a prohibition in regard 
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can lock you in so that certain things can be jeopardized, 
and I think that this type of thing has to be considered 
during our course of operations. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Not meaning this to sound as 
facetious as I know it will, I am afraid that timely 
submission would be, in effect, day before yesterday. 

Any further comment? 

MR. SAYRE : I hope we vote favorably for having 
a Report submitted. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? 
All those in favor, please signify by saying Aye. Con- 
trary, No. The Chair is in doubt. All those in favor, 
please signify by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion 
is lost, 8 to 10. Any further comment or motions with 
respect to this Report? 

Mr. Sayre, let me say to you that if there is 
time, I feel quite certain that the Committee will make 
such a study. I cannot see how it could possibly be 
incorporated in the Report. It may be possible for the 
Committee to do it and have a study paper, which would be 
included in the work book. 



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MR. CASE: May I say something else? 

THE CHA IRMAN : Mr . Case? 

MR. CASE: I told Mr. Sayre that I thought it 
was a tremendously interesting point and one which 
probably deserves study, and I will try to do that study 
but I don't want to be under compulsion if I don't get 
it done to be drummed out of the court for nonobservance 
of an order . 

THE CHAIRMAN: If there is no further discus- 
sion of this Report, we will take a recess for just a 
few minutes . 

(At this time a short recess was taken.) 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go ahead now on 

2 elective franchise, Seventh Report. 

3 MR. GENTRY: This Seventh Report follows 

4: the Fifth because we were asked to make certain clean- 

5 up changes which was done here and I will just read the 

6 sections without too much comment. Section which is 

7 the section related to disqualifications would read as 

8 proposed by the Committee. 

9 Disqualification. The General Assembly 

10 by law shall establish disqualifications for voting for 

11 mental incompetence and for conviction of serious crime 

12 and may provide for the removal of such disqualifications. 

13 It was felt at the last meeting this left 

14 open the question of whether it was a pardon by the 

15 Governor of Maryland or pardon by another Governor would 

16 be sufficient. In thinking of this in committee it was 

17 felt that since we are going to allow the General Assembly 

18 to establish disqualifications it would be quite 

19 appropriate to allow them to provide for method of 

20 removal. 

21 MR CLAGETT: If we make it mandatory that 



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1 they do so, why don't we make it mandatory that they 

2 shall also provide for the removal? In other v;ords , 

3 why do we use "may" instead of "shall" in the last 

4 sentence? 

5 MR GENTRY: I think we felt that they 

6 certainly would provide. I don't think the 

7 Committee, unless I hear something, has any strong 

8 feelings about that. We would be content if it is 

9 felt better to have "shall." 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: If you are going to substitute 

11 "shall," you have to turn the sentence around a little, 

12 I think, by sayi.ng something such as "and shall provide 

13 the means or methods by which such disqualification shall 

14 be removed." You don't want to make it mandatory that 

15 they be removed . 

16 MRo MILLER: May be removed. Aren't there 

17 some you wouldn't want removed? 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I just suggested that. 

19 MR. GENTRY: It comes back to me now. I 

20 think that was the reason for the "may." It was felt 

21 they would provide for a system or criteria for the 



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1 reinstatement but they by using "may" would not be 

2 compelled in every case to provide for reinstatement. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: I am satisfied with the 

4 explanation. 

5 DR. JENKINS: It appears here your. :e voting 

6 for minor mental incompetence might be improved by 

7 voting for reason of mental incompetence. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: I assume Dr. Jenkins just 

9 submitted it to the Committee on Style? 

10 DR. JENKINS: That is right, for reason of 

11 mental incompetency. Not voting for or against mental 

12 incompetency in this context at least. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: Although we may be qualified 

14 as having mental incompetence. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on 

16 Section 4? If not, we go to Section 7. 

17 MR GENTRY: Section 7, Local Elections. 

18 Voting qualifications for local elections shall be as 

19 provided in Section 1 of this Article except that 

20 any municipal corporation (incorporated town and city) 

21 may establish a period of minimum residence not exceeding 



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1 one year and may extend the right to vote to nonresidents 

2 ov/ning taxable property within its limits. 

3 The only change here as shown there was to 

4 delete the word political subdivisions because it was 

5 pointed out last meeting that was too broad and encompassed 

6 counties. It was the intention that it only relate to 

7 incorporated towns and cities. We hopefully feel this 

8 ties in with Section 11.04, the Political Subdivisions, 

9 which uses the words municipal corporation. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any question or comment? 

11 Section 8. 

12 MR. GENTRY: Section 8 reads as follows: 

13 If, within sixty days from the date on which a bill 

14 becomes law, a petition is filed with the office of the 

15 governor to refer the lav; to a vote of the people, the 

16 law shall be submitted to a vote at the next general 

17 election. If rejected by a majority of those voting 

18 on the question at the next general election, the law 

19 shall stand repealed thirty days thereafter. 

20 If the petition is filed before the date on 
which the lav/ is to take effect, then, unless the law 



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1 is one passed by a three-fifth vote of all the members 

2 of each house of the General Assembly, it shall not take 

3 effect until thirty days after its approval by a 

4 majority of those voting on the question. 

5 Previously we had had a situation where 

6 we provided that the law should be suspended and we 

7 provided also that the petition should be filed before 

8 the effective date. 

9 It was pointed out that might be impractical 

10 because the Legislature can, of course, pass a law 

11 with an immediate effective date, that is, one which 

12 precedes June 1. In this fashion we completely 

13 revamped this and we feel it is actually better than 

14 previously submitted. We allowed a 60-day period for 

15 filing of a petition but, of course, the lav; would not . 

16 be suspended during the interim. We don't feel that is 

17 a serious handicap to a referendum anyway. Only if it 

18 is rejected, the law, by a majority of those voting on 

19 the question, would it stand repealed. We have, however, 

20 allowed for a suspension if in fact the petition is 

21 filed prior to the effective date unless, of course, it 



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1 is one passed by the three-fifths. Whether we use three- 

2 fifths or two-thirds will have to be separately taken 

3 up but that is an isolated question. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions or comments? 

5 MR. CASE: What is the substantive change 

6 here? 

7 MR. GENTRY: The change is this. That 

8 previously we had said that the petition had to be filed 

9 before the effective date. It was pointed out when this 

10 was submitted that that was very impractical because you 

11 could have a law passed with an immediate effective 

12 date which wouldn't allow for filing of a petition. 

13 Therefore, we went to this style which allows you a 

14 60-dayperiod in which to file your petition. That would 

15 be the substantial change in this draft over this 

16 previously submitted. Plus the fact that in the 

17 other draft previously submitted we provided for 

18 suspension of the law during the referendum period 

19 until the vote was taken unless it was one of these 

20 passed by a three-fifths vote. Here we only allow for 

21 suspension if in fact the referendum is filed prior 



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1 to the effective date of the act. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: Is this three-fifths instead 

3 of two-thirds still open to a later decision by the 

4 Commission? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. When we finish all the 

6 sections we are going to submit for consideration all 

7 extraordinary votes at one time. Any further question? 

8 MRS. BOTHE: On reading this casually, I 

9 get the impression in the first phrase that the petition 

10 can't be filed until after the bill becomes law ad , 

11 language 60 days from the day on which the bill becomes 

12 law. I know that is not what the Committee meant. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: The sense is I take it before 

14 the expiration of 60 days after date -- 

15 MR C GENTRY: That is correct. 

16 MRS. BOTHE: I suggest the language be 

17 changed . 

18 MR. CASE: Is it clear that if -- this is 

19 what I understand the Commission passed as a matter of 

20 policy — that if the law were passed by X per cent, 

21 three-fifths, two-thirds, whatever it is, that a 



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petition for referendum would not suspend the operation 
of that law. 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: That is correct. 

MR. CLAGETT: That is what this says. 

MR. CASE: It doesn't say that. I suppose 
you could imply it but it doesn't say it. 

MR. BROOKS: Second paragraph. 

DR. BURDETTE: Law shall stand repealed 
30 days thereafter. 

MR. CASE: If the petition is filed before 
the date on which the law is to take effect, unless the 
lav; is passed -- yes. 

MR. CLAGETT: It stands until it is 
repealed. 

MRc CASE: That is right, but suppose it 



16 


is passed by three-fifths. It doesn't really say what 


17 


happens . 


18 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case's point is it does 


19 


not affirmatively say. 


20 


MR. CASE: That is right, it does not say it. 


21 


THE CHAIRMAN: This again is a question for 


- 


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1 the Committee on Style. The intent is that the section 

2 shall be clear that if it is passed by a three-fifths 

3 vote, then it shall take effect and be repealed if 

4 rejected by the voters. 

5 MR. GENTRY: Correct. 

6 MR. CASE: I have another question. Under 

7 the proposed document we are drafting is the General 

8 Assembly going to be permitted to state when a law 

9 shall become effective? 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. There is a provision 

11 that unless a date is stated, it is June 1 as it is 

12 today. 

13 MR. CASE: Suppose you have a law that is 

14 to become effective November 1 of an election year and 

15 then 60 days after that when the election is over, this 

16 petition is filed. Then you are fouled up for two full 

17 years . 

18 MR. SYKES: We considered just that point 

19 in committee. That was the reason why the critical 

20 date was not the date the law goes into effect but the 

21 date the bill becomes lav;. The Article on the Legislative 



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I Department points out that a bill becomes law when it 
g passes the Legislature with the requisite number of 
3 votes and gets the approval of the Governor. This 
4. advances the time that the petition has to be filed and 

5 was designed to eliminate precisely the foul-up Mr. Case 

6 was worried about. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: I think this was one of the 
g things discussed at the last meeting of the Commission 
9 or second meeting. Does that answer your question, 

10 Mr. Case? 

II MR. CASE: Yes. 

12 DR. BURDETTE: I am very unhappy with 

13 that technicality. Because no layman, this is only 

14 style, no layman would read this language that the 

15 bill becomes law until it is in effect. This is a 
15 lawyer's difference. I just wish we cxild get soma 
17 language — 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: This is one the lawyers 

19 would say was abundantly clear. 

20 DR. BURDETTE: You see what I am talking 

21 about. It ought to be abundantly clear to a layman. 1 



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1 understand it but people would get fouled on their 

2 deadline date by this. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: We refer that to the 

4 Committee on Style. 

5 DR. BURDETTE: I would rather actually say 

6 within 60 days from the date on which the bill receives 

7 approval by the Governor. 

8 MR. SYKES: Then it can be passed over 

9 veto. You can't do it in a compendious way. 

10 MR. CLAGETT: When does the bill became 

11 law. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: When it has received final 

13 approval to make it a law. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: And not its effective date. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Either when signed by the 

16 Governor or passed over his veto. 

17 . THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of 

18 the section? If not, we move to Section 9. 

19 MR. GENTRY: Section 9 would read as follows 

20 with the new language underlined. A petition shall be 

21 sufficient to refer a lav;, or any part thereof, to a 



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1 vote of the people if signed by a number of eligible 

2 voters equal to five per cent of the total number of 

3 votes cast for governor in the last gubernatorial 

4 election, .provided that not more than one-half of such 

5 required number shall be voters residing in any one 

6 country. 

7 I think we embodied here the direction V7hich 
3 we were given at the last meeting when we submitted a 

9 rather complex method of reaching the percentage. 

10 We have also eliminated from here the 

11 language which we previously had which was to the 

12 effect that if at least half the required signatures 

13 were obtained prior to the filing date, you had an 

14 extension of 30 days. The reason for the deletion of 

15 that was we felt since we were giving the 60-day period 

16 which we hadn't previously, we are now giving the 60- 

17 day period for filing the petition it was not necessary 

18 to carry forward the one-half of the required numbers 

19 and then 30-day extension. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

21 DR. BURDETTE: The question here is whether 



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1 the Committee considers the language being proposed by 

2 the Subdivision Committee that Baltimore City be 

3 considered a county is applicable here also. 

4 MR. GENTRY: Yes, we do. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: This isn't clear in any 

6 draft of the Constitution we now have because the 

7 provision actually, I think, is literally included 

8 only in the Article on the Judiciary but in discussing 

9 that the Commission decided for all purposes Baltimore 

10 City would be considered a county. 

11 MR. MITCHELL: I would like to ask a question. 

12 I am thinking in terms of the requirement that not 

13 more than one-half of such required number shall be 

14 voters residing in any one county. I am thinking of 

15 the possibility that the Legislature may make a 

16 classification of various counties by grouping them and 

17 perhaps have three counties with great differences in 

18 population. Would that still be proper in that case? 

19 For example, suppose Prince Georges were 

20 tied in with St. Mary's and Charles on a classification. 

21 Would there be some adjustment on this referendum to 



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1 relate to such a local bill as that. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I folic; you. 

3 You are talking about a bill that creates the class i- 

4 fication of counties? 

5 MR. MITCHELL: I am applying it to existing 

6 situations. Suppose we had a situation of a local law 

7 passed for one county. 

8 MRS. FREEDLANDER: We are not going to have 

9 it. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: We don't contemplate there 

11 would be any such. 

12 MR. MITCHELL: We could group it. I 

13 think the figure was three counties. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: More than three. 

15 MR. MITCHELL: Three or more than three. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: More than three. 

17 MR. MITCHELL: Probably wouldn't make 

18 any difference. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: It means if there was a 

20 classification of three counties, still a statewide 

21 referendum could be held where more than one -ha If came 



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1 from two of those counties, composing the three. No 

2 objection to that. It V7ould have to equal the five per 

3 cent. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? 

5 MRo GENTRY: Section 10. Restrictions. 

6 No plan for legislative reapportionment or congressional 

7 redis trie ting, no law imposing a tax and no law making 

8 an appropriation for maintaining the state government or 

9 for aiding or maintaining any public institution shall 

10 be subject to referendum. 

11 Only change is as shown. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any comment or question? 

13 Mr. Sayre? 

14 MR C SAYRE: Question. VJhen we talk about 

15 appropriation for maintaining the state government, 

16 et cetera, does this mean that you could alter something 

17 in this area other than appropriations? It seems to 

18 me we ought to have more restrictions than this because 

19 there is a standard prohibition pretty much against 

20 changing the judiciary. 

21 MR. GENTRY t There were two areas which it 



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1 was felt by the Commission should be withdrawn from 

2 referendum. Those two areas were the reapportionment 

3 area, both spheres, and also money matters. That was 

4 the intention and that's what is embodied here. 

5 MR. MILLER: Nothing sacrosanct about the 

6 judiciary. If there were a pork barrel bill to make 

7 three times as many judges and the people didn't want 

8 it, it would be voted down. 

9 MR. GENTRY: That is the submission, Mr. 

10 Chairman. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry, the reason I 

12 asked you to pause before was I remembered having seen 

13 in the minutes of the August meeting something that is 

14 contrary to what is here. You haven't gotten those 

15 minutes until this morning and neither did the 

16 Commission. But going back to Section 9, the previous 

17 recommendation of the Commission considered at the 

18 August meeting was that the petitions be distributed 

19 so as to include not less than 5 per cent of the 

20 eligible voters voting for Governor in the last guber- 

21 natorial election in each of ten counties. That was 



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1 eliminated by the Commission. 

2 Then there was a motion by Mr. Bond 

3 seconded and rejected by a vote of nine to ten, that 

4r the Constitution provide that no more than one-half of 

5 the petitioners reside in Baltimore City or in any one 

6 county. 

7 Then I think, I am not sure whether the 

8 previous motion had left the matter to be reconsidered 

9 by the Committee. 

10 I raise the question now because apparently 

11 on the record the action of the Committee is contrary 

12 to what the action of the Commission was last time. 

13 I wondered whether the Commission in making the change 

14 in Section 9 thought it was following the mandate of 

15 the Commission. 

16 MR. GENTRY: We certainly did. We thought 

17 that it was the sense of the Commission that the one- 

18 half from any one county be — if we had that wrong, this 

19 is wrong. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: All I am trying to get is 

21 whether this reflected the judgment of the Committee or 



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1 whether you were merely following what you thought was 

2 the mandate of the Commission. 

3 MR. GENTRY: On the first question it 

4 does represent the judgment of the Committee. On the 

5 second question we thought it also represented the 

6 judgment of the Commission. Apparently if you have the 

7 minutes that show the votes going nine to ten, the other 

8 way — 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: The vote was not affirmative 

10 in requiring that you do anything. It was the fact 

11 that the motion to require you to do something was 

12 lost. I just wanted to find out the position of the 

13 Committee. 

14 MR. GENTRY: The Committee does feel that 

15 we should have the one-half reservation. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: With that explanation, is 

17 there any further comment by anybody with respect to 

18 Section 9? 

19 MR. CASE: Under your rules, can you consider 

20 this? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, because th is is new 



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1 matter, not required by the Commission. 

2 MR. CASE: The Commission has voted on this 

3 subject once. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: It simply rejected a motion 

5 to require the Committee to make thischange. It did 

6 not affirmatively say they could not make the change. 

7 MR. CASE: That is a lawyer's answer if 

8 ever I heard one. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: The matter had been committed 

10 to the Committee to study the matter and come up with 

11 a representative solution or solution that would give 

12 representation throughout the state to the number of 

13 signatures required. A motion at the August meeting 
14- was instead to require the Committee to adopt this 

15 recommendation. That motion was defeated. 

16 I take it it was then left to the Committee. 

17 I was merely inquiring of Mr. Gentry whether his 

18 Committee was acting under the misapprehension they were 

19 required to make this change because his comment so 

20 indicated. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: In view of, I won't say the 



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1 uncertainty of the legislative history of this proposal, 

2 but in light of Mr. Case's point, would the Chair enter- 

3 tain a formal motion moving the adoption by this 

4 Commission of Section 9 as recommended by the Committee? 

5 If it is proper, I would like to make that motion. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Under our procedure unless 

7 there is objection or a motion to reject the section, 

8 it is adopted. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: I understand that. I thought 

10 because of this peculiar prior history — 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I have no objection. 

12 DR. BUItDETTE: What is the motion? 

13 MR. SCANLAN: That we adopt Section 9 as 

14 proposed by the Committee. 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: Second. 

16 DR. BURDETTE: Has the Committee considered 

17 this situation which I am indebted to Mr. Mitchell 

18 for pointing out the problem? If we do go into 

1^ classification of counties and allow legislation by 

classification and we had one big county classified in 



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1 classification, would this make the thing really inopera- 

2 tive? Do we have a problem here that ought to be settled? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the answer is this, 

4 Mr. Clagett can correct me if I am wrong. What that 

5 Committee proposes is an automatic referendum on such 

6 classifications anyhow. 

7 DR. BURDETTE: I was not speaking about 

8 legislation for classification but legislation applicable 

9 to the counties within the classification. 

10 -MR. CLAGETT: I think the answer to that 

11 question would be that notwithstanding the sizable 

12 number coming from that one county, you would still 

13 have to have one -ha If of 5 per cent coming from the 

14 smaller counties. 

15 DR. BURDETTE: That is the point but it might 

16 be absolutely impossible to do so if, for instance, 

17 the classification were Prince Georges and Calvert 

18 unless you had to go up into Anne Arundel or Montgomery, 

19 not within the area to which the law was applicable. 

20 MR. SCANLAN: How would it be impossible? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: Why couldn't you go to other 



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1 counties? 

2 DR BURDETTE: You could but you would have 

3 the answer this law does not apply to us. You have 

4 a burden getting people who say it does not apply to us 

5 to vote on the legislation. It is not impossible. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Am I correct that the 

7 referendum provisions, all of which are not included in 

8 this report, contemplate only statewide referendum? 

9 MR. GENTRY: That is correct. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: So that you're not in the 

11 situation supposed by Dr. Burdette lj.mited to the 

12 particular counties that may be affected by the legisla- 

13 tion in question? Is that correct? 

14 MR. GENTRY: Yes, sir. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I follow your 

16 point if that is not it, Dr. Burdette. 

17 DR. BURDETTE: As I understand the Committee 

18 to mean by this referendum, it may be incorrect, that 

19 if we classify the counties of Maryland into some, how 

20 many can we have, five? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: Maximum. 



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1 DR. BURDETTE: Maximum of five, we could 

2 have a situation wherein if the classification were 

3 geographical that one county is very large, the others 

4 very small, are you saying then to reverse the legislative 

5 action for that group of counties by referendum would 

6 require a statewide vote? 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir. 

8 DR. BURDETTE: I suspect that is the case. 

9 MR. BROOKS: The only counties in this 

10 case that are going to be concerned with the legislation 

11 are those in the classification so Dr. Burdette's point, 

12 as I understand it, is that trying to get the concern 

13 of the smaller counties sufficient to meet the demands 

14 of the 50 per cent vote may be insurmountable based 

15 on the gubernatorial requirement of how many voters 

16 you have to have so you do have a problem. 

17 DR. BURDETTE: I agree with Mr. Brooks' 

18 analysis of it exactly. 

19 MR. KOFF: I think practically speaking if it 

20 were a question of the small cainties against a larger 

21 county you could enlist a lot of support from the other 



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1 small counties in the state and perhaps not have too 

2 much trouble getting your half of 5 per cent. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Remember that referendums 

4 are not particularly favored anyway. So the difficulty 

5 here is in line with that thought, I would say. 

6 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Chairman, I move that 

7 the Committee be requested to prepare another provision 

8 relating to referenda in view of the possibility of 

9 a classification of counties where the Act may apply 

10 to fewer than all of the counties in the state. There 

11 should be — is that clear? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mitchell, that is a 

13 matter that was discussed a number of meetings ago 

14 probably before you came on the Commission. I would 

15 have to rule this would be a reconsideration and submit 

16 to a vote without debate the question of whether it 

17 should be reconsidered. Is there a second to the 

18 motion? You understand that Mr. Mitchell's motion is 

19 that the Committee be instructed to consider as an 

20 alternate or addition to a statewide referendum a means 

21 of referendum limited to a locality where the law 



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1 applied to that locality. 

2 MR. SCANLAN: Is this motion displacing 

3 my own pending motion, Mr. Chairman? 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry. No, it will 

5 not. We will hold your motion in abeyance. 

6 MR. SCANLAN: My pending motion is to 

7 adopt Section 9. 

8 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I seconded it. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion on 

10 that motion? 

11 MRS. BOTHE: Which motion? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion to approve Section 

13 9 as presented on Page 3 of the report. Any further 

14 discussion? 

15 MR. CASE: May I ask a question? 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case. 

17 MR. CASE: If the General Assembly should 

18 pass a law relating to Apalachia, let's say, whatever 

19 that means, up there — 

20 MR. CIAGETT: Up there where the mountains 

21 are. 



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1 MR. CASE: Under the way this is written, 

2 could that law, assuming it isn't one of the prohibited 

3 kinds that can't be subject to referendum, could that 

* lav; be put on the ballot if Baltimore County, Baltimore 

5 City, and Anne Arundel County ganged up to put it on the 

6 ballot and nobody in the affected area — 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: It would be subject to state- 

8 wide referendum. 

9 MR. CASE: It would be subject to statewide 
*-Q referendum even though nobody in the area wanted it 

11 there? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: None of the petitions were 

13 in the area, that is correct. Any further question? 

*' Ready for the question on the motion to approve Section 

15 9 as drafted? All those in favor signify by saying 

16 aye, contrary, no. So ordered. 

*» Mr. Mitchell, you have a motion to have 

1 8 the Comnittee reconsider the question of Statewide 

19 referendum and to consider and report a method for local 
referendum on matters pertaining only to local areas. 
Is there a second to that motion? Motion fails for lack 



20 
21 



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1 of a second. 

2 MR. SAYRE: I think just to accommodate Mr. 

3 Mitchell I think the political subdivisions may have 

4 something where local government could bring up this 

5 under its own charter or form of government so that \7ould 

be 

6 not/eliminated. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of 

8 this report? Any further questions? 

9 Mr. Gentry, I believe this concludes the 

10 Article on Suffrage and Elections as well as the Article 

11 on Declaration of Rights, does it not? 

12 MR. GENTRY: That is correct. The only 

13 thing I would mention to the Commission is we still 

14 have open the matter of preamble. Again I will invite 

15 anybody that wants to submit a draft or proposal or 

16 thoughts of a preamble or comments on the ones we 

17 already have, the two, I would appreciate it because 

18 it is an area somewhat nebulous to work in. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Nov; we move to consideration 

20 of the Sixth Report of the Committee on Procedures. You 

21 should have the report and an accompanying bill. They 



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1 were both handed to you in the envelope this morning. 

2 Mr. Brooks says the bill was submitted to you this 

3 morning, the report you had by mail. 

4 (Discussion off the record.) 

5 MR. SCANLAN: The reporter thought this 

6 was to be taken up at a later date and I think that 

7 explains his absence. 

8 This is the Sixth Report of our Committee 

9 on Convention Procedures. Basically it is a report 

10 that urges the adoption of a proposed enabling act which 

11 if it was passed by the General Assembly which convenes 

12 next January, would form the statutory basis for the 

13 Constitutional Convention itself. 

14 As indicated in the first page of the report 

15 itself, many of the matters, I would say the majority 

16 of the matters of substance embraced in the proposed 

17 bill have previously been considered by t he Commission. 

18 We believe that the Commission's action on those 

19 previous reports have been reflected in the bill itself. 

20 Hopefully that's so. 

21 The first section of the bill, of course, 



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1 is the bill heading with title of the bill. I see no 

2 need to read what clearly is a very long title or 

3 heading. I think perhaps longer than most bills that 

4 we have encountered. This was deliberate. Very 

5 frankly, the Committee has always had in the back of 

6 its mind the possibility that somebody some day might 

7 attempt to prevent the convention from being convened 

8 by litigation. Of course, one of the areas that might 

9 be attacked would be to raise the issue that the bill or 

10 the statute under which the convention was convened 

11 was unlawful in one respect or another. 

12 As you know, a bill should in its title or 

13 heading reflect the substance of the bill or the 

14 matters that the bill deals with. That explains the 

15 rather long bill heading. I don't believe it's necessary 

16 to read it. You all have it in front of you, unless 

17 someone requests me to read it, I will assume everyone 

18 has read it or is reading it. 

19 MR. BOND: I do have one question on the 

20 bill heading. I just read it. I see nothing in the 

21 bill heading that indicates how the convention will be 



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1 paid for. I wonder if it should not be in the bill 

2 heading. 

3 MR. SCANLAN; I believe it provides for 

4 compensation of the delegates. 

5 MR. BOND: I am talking about the cost of 

6 the special election particularly. 

7 MR. BROOKS: This is the point I was 

8 suggesting be taken up as a special report not in 

9 this report by the Commission today because this is 

10 something that will have to be really drawn up and 

11 presented in a different bill from this and should go 

12 on to the Budget Department right now. I think it 

13 probably would be an appropriate item of business after 

14 the consideration of this report. 

15 MR C BOND: Does everyone understand the 

16 point I make? There is no provision in the bill to 

17 provide for the expense of a special election. If we 

18 do it, we have to do it fast. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: That is correct. 

20 MR. SYKES: Can I make one suggestion about 

21 drafting this title? When you try to summarize express 



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1 provisions of an act, you run a risk that you don't 

2 include them all or that they don't exactly summarize 

3 all the provisions of the act. In any act, especially 

4 of this importance, there ought to be a general line 

5 in the title which doesn't say that the act provides 

6 for anything but says that the act relates to something. 

7 I v/ould suggest that this be amended to read an act 

8 providing for all the specific things you want to provide 

9 for and at the end you should add and relating 

10 generally to a Constitutional Convention of this state. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan has noted it. 

12 Any further questions as to the title? 

13 MR, CASE: I have a fundamental question 

14 about this bill. I don't know whether now is the 

15 time to bring it up or not. 

15 Everybody is so taken up with what the 

17 Constitution ought to be, I wonder if we have lost 

18 sight for a moment of what the Constitution is today. 

19 I have some serious doubt as to whether this bill can 

20 be an emergency bill. The Constitution says now that 

21 no measure creating or abolishing an office or granting 



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1 any franchise or special privilege or creating any 

2 vested right or interest shall be enacted as emergency 

3 law. To me this bill creates an office and it grants 

4 a franchise. 

5 MR. SCANLAN: Originally the bill was not 

6 proposed as an emergency measure. 

7 MRo CASE: Your explanation doesn't touch 

8 this point. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: I know. Originally the bill 

10 was not proposed as an emergency bill but in order to 

11 provide a time schedule in which candidates could 

12 file their candidacies between the time the Legislature 

13 dealt with it and holding the special election at the 

14 time this Commission had previously approved, it was 

15 necessary to make it an emergency measure. 

16 I suppose it is arguable whether or not 

17 within the meaning of the constitutional provision to 

18 which you refer it is arguable whether or not this 

19 bill actually creates an office in the sense of the 

20 Constitution. 

21 MR. CASE: I am all for it being an emergency 



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1 measure if we can do it but I think you might really 

2 be pulling out all stops if we got crocked on that 

3 point after you had gotten it through as an emergency 
4: measure. 

MR. CLAGETT: Where are you reading? I 

6 am looking at the section dealing with referendum. 

7 MR. CASE: That is the section that deals 

8 with emergency legislation. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: It says shall be subject 

10 to rejection or repeal under this section. 

11 MR. CASE: No. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: That's page 94. 

13 MR. CASE: Twelve lines from the bottom 

14 after the semi-colon. No measure creating or 

15 abolishing an office or changing the salary terms duties 

16 of an office — that's old time tested words. 

17 MRS. BOTHE: Is it absolutely necessary 

18 that this be an emergency bill? 

19 MR C SCANLAN: There are problems with that. 

20 The next session of the Legislature is to pass the bill. 

21 If it passes.it as a regular measure, it would not 



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1 become effective until June 1, '67. Then, of course, 

2 that would begin the time when people could file. You 

3 have to give people a chance to file. There has to be 

4 a period between June 1, at least 30 days, for people, 

5 maybe more . 

6 MR. CASE: I appreciate the problem. All 

7 I am saying is that this does to me create an office. 

8 These people are going to be officers. 

9 MR. MA.RTINEAU: Are you talking about 

10 delegates? Wasn't the office of delegate created by 

11 the bill passed last year? This merely provides how 

12 they are elected. 

13 MR. CASE: It grants a franchise, gives 

14 you the right to vote for them. 

15 MR. M^RTINEAU: I am not sure that is the 

16 franchise meant. 

17 MR CLAGETT: The office has already been 

18 created. 

19 MR. BROOKS: They have been created, 142 of 

20 them. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: That has already been done. 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: I think the franchise referred 

2 to is the old Anglosaxon terra of a grant, not special 

3 privilege, et cetera. 

4 MR. CASE: You had better get a ruling from 

5 the Attorney General on it. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think it will serve 

7 any useful purpose to debate it further today. I am 

8 sure the Committee will consider it further. Any 

9 further questions as to the title of the bill? 

10 MR. CLkGETT: I move that we actually ta ke 

11 or initiate immediate action to get a ruling by the 

12 Attorney General. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: I cbn't think you need a 

14 motion. Mr. Scanlan is going to take that into 

15 consideration and will do what is necessary. 

16 MR. BROOKS: The bill that did create the 

17 offices and provided for an election was an emergency 

18 bill last year. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: That's what I was seeking 
2C through the back of my mind, it raised a red flag. 
21 MR. BROOKS: It is to be ratified now by 



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public referendum. 

MR. CLAGETT: That's why I say we better 
find out . 

MR. CASE: There was some conversation at 
our table at lunch today there was no real authority 
to put that on the ballot. The whole thing is a nullity. 
Legislature has no right just to put something on the 
ballot. 

MR. SCANLAN: I believe, however, that 
last objection by Mr. Case is one we wrestled with 
earlier and I think the Commission acted on that one. 



MR. CASE: No question, the people have 



acted. 



MR. CLAGETT: We are aware of that problem 
and have already overcome that one. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of 
the title? If not, proceed. 

MR SCANLAN: Next is Section 1 of the 
bill. This section authorizes a special election of 
delegates to be held on June 6, 1967. The voters 
will be the legally qualified voters in each county of 



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1 the state and in each legislative district of Baltimore 

2 City. The representation, of course, will be equal 

3 to the number of delegates that the city or county 

4 possessed in the General Assembly of Maryland on 

5 January 1, 1967. That number has already been approved 

6 by the action of the Legislature at the last session. 

7 I think an item here that perhaps will give 

8 rise to differences of opinion is providing that the 

9 delegates are to be elected from the county as a whole 

10 except in the case of the City of Baltimore in which 

11 case they would be elected from the legislative 

12 districts of the City of Baltimore. I believe this 

13 matter was before the Commission in connection with 

14 one of our previous reports. There was considerable 

15 debate about it. It was the Committee's view that 

16 we would be better able to guarantee the non-partisan 
2 basis of the election if the delegates could come 
I: from a county as a whole that once you divided them into 

legislative districts there was a possibility of greater 

2C political pressure by the parties in the particular 

; county. Baltimore was treated as a special exception 



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because of the very large number of delegates that would 
come from the city if it was treated on an at large 
basis, I believe 43. For that reason the Committee 
continues to adhere to the view that the delegates should 
be elected from the county as a whole, the exception 
being the City of Baltimore in which case they would 
come from their respective legislative districts. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any comment? 

MR. BOND: Was this point voted upon and 
approved by the Commission at a previous meeting? 

THE CHAIRMAN: The point about the 
delegates running countywide? 

MR. BOND: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, that is the proposal 
now made by t he Committee. 

MR. BOND: I would like to move for purpose 
of discussion that the section be changed and that the 
delegates to the convention run from the districts in 
the county as set forth by the law of the state as at 
present. 

THE CHAIRMAN: From legislative ditricts? 



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county? 



MR. BOND: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: And subdistricts in the 

DR. BURDETTE: Second. 

MR. CASE: District. 

THE CHAIRMAN: District. Is the motion 
seconded? 

DR. BURDETTE: Second. 

MR. BOND: My comment is I disagree with 
the Committee's conclusion that you get higher type 
candidates by having elections from the county as a 
whole. I think that if you have legislative districts 
in the county, you have a closer relationship between 
the voters and delegates and people might know the 
people who are running and I feel that by running from 
a legislative district, you get a higher quality and 
better type candidate because of the fact that it would 
take fewer votes to elect the man and also because.".his 
neighbors and the people who are in close proximity 
with him in business and other pursuits would have some 
contact with him. 



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I I believe if you go to a county as a 
£ whole that then you in that case give a greater sway 
3 to a political machine, not saying all political machines 

are bad, political machines and politics are in it 

Z< because a concentrated effort by a machine can sweep 

C candidates into office regardless of if a man is 

strongly supported by neighbors and people with whom he 

is acquainted. 

9 MR. CASE: I would like to ask a question, 

10 Mr. Chairman. Does Mr. Bond's motion mean that the 

II candidates have to reside in the district but are 

12 elected on a countywide vote, which is one possibility? 

13 Or reside in a district and are elected from the vote 

14 of that district? 

15 MR. BOND: The latter is my intent. 

16 MR. CASE: The latter, in other words, the 

17 way the members of the House of Delegates are elected 

18 in Baltimore County and not members of the Council? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: That is right. 

20 MR. CASE: It is important to keep this 

21 distinction in mind. 



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1 DR. BURDETTE: Does the present statute 

2 with respect to election of members of the House of 

3 Delegates require that the persons elected from 

4 districts and counties be residents of the districts 

5 or residents of the county? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I think we are required 

7 to be residents of the legislative district from which 

8 they are to run as delegates. 

9 DR. BURDETTE: I imagine the point that the 

10 Committee in Section 2 which hasn't been brought up 

11 yet has language which if that be a fact is in conflict 

12 with Section 1 by providing that the delegates must 

13 possess all of the qualifications for a seat in the 

14 House of Delegates. There is a certain pyscho logical 

15 conflict here. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, one would 

17 be residence qualification in which you have a 

18 contrary recommendation. Any further discussion? 

19 MR. HARGROVE: It occurs to me peril aps 

20 there also should be a period of residency. As I recall, 

21 the members of, particularly the reapportioned districts, 



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the Court of Appeals held that the one year require- 
ment which had previously been in the requirement did 
not affect someone who wanted to run. It seems to me 
we don't want to get in that same problem. I know there 
were two cases, one in the Fourth Legislative District 
of Baltimore City, I think one in Anne Arundel County, 
if I am not mistaken. I would suggest that perhaps 
a year residency or some term of residence should be 
there to just avoid this problem. 

THE CHAIRMAN: We will consider that separate 
from the present motion. 

MRS. BOTHE: Before I vote on the motion 
on the floor, I would ask that Mr. Scanlan expand his 
Committee's theory that a better selection would be 
obtained on a countywide vote. 

MR. SCANLAN: At the time this non-partisan 
aspect of this special election was discussed, there 
was an attempt, as I recall, to insure that by specific 
statutory language which the Commission rejected. But 
certainly in the discussions both in t he Committee and 
in the Commission at the time the matter was before it, 



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1 everyone agreed, I assume, I thought, or most of us agreed 

2 that it was hoped that the election would be truly non- 

3 partisan, that the Democratic and Republican Central 
4r Committees in a particular area and various civic 

5 groups such as League of Women Voters and other types 

6 of groups would attempt to agree upon or solicit a 
V list of distinguished citizens of the area of the 

8 county to stand as delegates for the convention. 

9 I think it is more difficult, I believe, 

10 to do that when -- it is easier for my county of 

11 Montgomery, entitled to 16 delegates, much easier to 

12 put together a list of 16 distinguished citizens if 

13 we could draw from the county as a whole without being 

14 confined to the artificial boundaries, they certainly 

15 are artificial, highly gerrymandered boundaries of 

16 s the legislative districts as they now exist. 

17 The reason for the legislative districts, 

18 as I recall it in the reapportionment bill, was to 

19 cut down the opportunity to have a countywide political 

20 machine dominate. I remember certainly our friends of 

21 the Eastern Shore gave this as a reason and I think it 



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1 is a pretty good reason in that context but this is 

2 to be a non-partisan election. This is not a partisan 

3 election. Legislative districts were put in to curtail 

4 the power of political parties or political machines 

5 in political elections. They have no necessary appli- 

6 cability in this special type election which is to be 

7 a non-partisan election. I just think it is more 

8 difficult to draw a selective list of say 16 than it 

9 is to come up, less difficult to draw a list of 16 

10 when you can draw from a county as a whole than it is 

11 to artificially chop it up seven, seven and two. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

13 MR. BROOKS: I think this is a real political 

14 problem for this Commission and the Commission ought 

15 to really, I think this is the ideal time to consider 

16 what its hopes are in regard to a constitutional 

17 convention. I would think it would be the Commission's 

18 interest to already be considering those persons in the 

19 various legislative districts and counties who might 

20 make good delegates and already begin encouraging such 

21 persons to consider running for delegates. We are talking 



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1 about 142 persons who really require or should have a 

2 better background in government and governmental 

5 understanding than even those elected to the General 
4 Assembly of this state. That's a lot of people to 

g have any special knowledge and understanding in 

6 government unfortunately. 

7 The proposed size of the convention is 

8 actually an unusually large group to be writing the kind 

9 of document that might be desired for a state constitu- 

10 tion. Although there is precedent in a few cases of 

11 having such large conventions prepare constitutions, we 

12 know that the majority of constitutions have been 

13 prepared by much smaller groups. 

14 I think what Mr. Scanlan says in regard 

15 to how much easier it is to find really qualified 

15 people in certain areas of some of the counties rather 

17 than actually making a hardship by subdividing the 

18 county and then looking for a number of precisely 

19 qualified people in each district is much easier in 

20 spite of the risk that it may well be that you may 

21 lose all the qualified candidates against an organization 



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1 if an organization in fact supported a full slate on a 

2 countywide basis. You do take the risk either way. 

3 For instance, some of the counties are divided up into 

4 seven or eight districts, two or three seats in the 

5 legislative House of Delegates per district which means 

6 the maximum persons we can get from such district is 

7 one or two. We already know from practical experience, 

8 we have looked around to see who are qualified people, 

9 for instance, this Commission has consultants to the 
10 Commission who by chance I doctored up a map to see 

H where our consultants live. They live primarily in two 

12 districts, legislative districts. If we divide the 

13 state on that basis, we could not have many of our 

14 consultants even considered delegates if we considered 

15 them the type of persons to make good delegates. I 

16 think we should consider seriously as a Commission 

17 whether or not it isn't worth taking the risl<: of being 

18 able to have more qualified candidates or persons in 

1^ various areas of the state consider being delegates and 
actually having a chance of being elected than it is of 



20 



21 being overwhelmed by the political machines in these 



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1 counties. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to comment before 
5 the debate closes. To a certain extent my comment 

4 has to be personal but I can't illustrate the point 

5 in anyother way. 

g I think as John has indicated we are some- 

7 what on the horns of a dilemma in this situation and 

g we have to face up to it and make a choice as to which 

9 is the better or which is the lesser of two evils 

10 perhaps. I think I can illustrate my point better by 

11 using my own county as an illustration than in any other 

12 way . 

13 I am a resident of Baltimore County. It 

14 has seven legislative districts, each of which has 

15 three delegates. The county itself has three large 

15 centers of population, southeastern end, Essex-Dundalk . 

17 area, north central part concentrated around Towson, 

18 Dulaney Valley, Loch Raven area, and to the west, 

19 and the west end of the county concentrated around the 

20 Catonsville area. 

21 If candidates run countywide, there is, of 



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1 course, the possibility that the number of candidates 

2 would be such that you would have elected as delegates 

3 those who were known to and hence supported by the 

4 people in these large centers of population and thereby 

5 prevent election of people not in these large centers 

6 of population. 

7 I happen not to live in one of the large 

8 centers of population and my district, I have to get 

9 personal in this sense here to illustrate the point, 

10 happens to be very, very large geographically. It 

11 happens to include, I think, an area in which this 

12 Commission could find a large number of persons that 

13 it would deem to be well qualified to serve on a 

14 constitutional convention. 

15 In addition it happens to include among 

16 its residents Mr. Case, Dr. Winslow, and myself. I 

17 could name, I am sure, and Mr. Case, I am sure, could 

18 name 25 or 50 people without trying in that same large 

19 area. If we have a system of limiting the election 

20 of candidates by districts, it would mean that there 

21 could be three delegates elected from the Fifth Legislative 



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1 District regardless of how many might be qualified. 

2 There would be three elected from each of the other 

5 districts which might have three or more than three or 

4 less than three persons who were well qualified. 

5 I cite this as an illustration merely to 
g point out that the problem has no clear answer. It 

7 has dilemmas and difficulties no matter which solution 

3 you choose. I think we should carefully decide which 

9 we want to recommend. 

10 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, I think 

11 what you have said is applicable to the City of 

12 Baltimore also. I agree with what Mr. Brooks said 

13 that the caliber of people that would qualify for 

14 constitutional convention is different from that who 

15 may qualify for other policital office. If you select 

16 people from districts in Baltimore City, you run the 

17 risk of two things. Either there is no one who will 

18 have the time or financial means or ability or intelli- 

19 gence or interest or you will have what I have already 

20 gotten wind of, some of the political bosses are going 

21 to put up straw men — I heard this in the city — 



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1 people who will not be informed, who will not vote 

2 unless someone tells them to vote. I would like to 

3 urge us not to even think in terms of districting 

4 as it applies to Baltimore City. 

5 MRS. BOTHE: Using your example, Mr. Eney, 

6 I feel quite concerned about the countywide election 

7 because if my understanding is correct, had you not had 

8 districting in Baltimore County, you might not even 

9 have any representation from the area in which you and 

10 Mr. Case live in the General Assembly. 

11 The Baltimore County powers that be, as I 

12 understand them, are so divided that the districting is 

13 what has preserved some decent representation in 

14 Baltimore County in the General Assembly and I dare say 

15 may do so also in the convention. Just, for example, I 

16 don't want to make any particular comments about the 

17 members of the General Assembly from your county, but 

18 I don't think the representation is one which we would 

19 like to see in the convention altogether. 

20 On election day, for instance, a member of 

21 the National States Rights Party presented me with their 



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1 ticket for Baltimore County. They had recommendations 

2 from all the various districts except one. That was 

3 the second district. They had no recommendation. They 

4 had the note that all candidates from that district were 

5 Jews . 

6 The outcome of the election was very 

7 favorable to the position taken by the National States 

8 Rights Party and I deeply fear that the very thing you 

9 want to avoid in Baltimore County will occur if we don't 

10 have districting based on the experience we had in the 

11 recent election on the selection of delegates to the 

12 General Assembly from your county. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: We did have districting. 

14 MRS. BOTHE: Because of the districting 

15 you were savedcomplete chaos. 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: As I understand it, Mr. 

17 Bond's proposal would not require any area not now 

18 districted to be districted? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: Notwithstanding the fact that 

21 eventually the product of the convention and hopefully 



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1 that product being somewhat similar to the one we are 

2 working on trying to produce now being more easily sold 

3 to the people. When that time comes, I believe that, 

4 and notwithstanding there is some validity to the state- 

5 ment Mr. Bond made a while ago, that your representa- 

6 tion from each of the districts would be closer to the 

7 people, I don't feel that that has any real merit in 

8 today's means of communication, television, radio, 

9 good roads, access, easy communication generally. 

10 So that within the boundaries of the county 

11 you certainly have the representation of all points 

12 of view going into anybody who lives in that county. 

13 Any individual living in a county today is fairly 

14 representative of the thinking of that county rather 

15 than worrying about splitting it up into segments by 

16 way of the legislative districts. Therefore, all 

17 factors considered, I think that where we are dealing 

18 with a special subject, one that does require special 

19 qualifications, we would be better off going ahead and 
£0 drawing from that county as a whole rather than from 
21 the special areas. 



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1 DR JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I am sure we 

2 all want a very high level constitutional convention. 

3 But our concept of blue ribbon groups in our society is 

4 changing a bit as all of you lawyers know. I am not 

5 at all concerned about the lack of qualified people by 

6 districts. Granted that in some districts we may find 

7 a concentration, I hope we will not take the view that 

8 qualified people cannot be found in other districts. 

9 My concern is how are we going to circum- 

10 vent the politicians used in a narrow sense, not that 

11 people are not available in all of these districts. 

12 MR. CASE: Mr. Chairman, I, like yourself, 

13 have mixed emotions about this. I would like to 

14 speak in support of — before proposing a motion, 

15 there is just no question about the fact that the 

16 Chairman stated in Baltimore County, the larger pool of 

17 qualified people are going to be drawn, can be drawn 

18 from one district, and if the motion prevails, the 

19 effect will be to exclude some or a great number of these 

20 people from the Commission's deliberation. I think you 

21 have to think in terms of what the Chs irman of this 



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1 Committee said. Namely that what we are trying to do 

2 here is to get the best possible people on a nonpolitical 

3 basis and this can be done through such organizations 

4 as the League of V7omen Voters, as various other groups, 

5 do good groups, if you will, but still groups of this 

6 kind . 

7 As far as the politicians are concerned, 

8 let me say this to you, Dr. Jenkins. Politicians are 

9 not going to mount any great assault on a ticket which 

10 is put together by these groups and has the unqualified 

11 support of the press unless they get a great deal of 

12 money to do it because politicians don't operate as 

13 they do unless they have money to run their precincts 

14 unless they have money to print ballots, money to get 

15 their workers to the polls and so on. 

16 DR. JENKINS: You are referring to politicians 

17 in the narrow sense, not statesmen? 

18 MR C CASE: I am thinking of the people you 

19 talk of as politicians that get the vote out in 

20 Baltimore County, for example, in the Twelfth and 

21 Fifteenth Districts. I don't think people in the Twelfth 



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1 and Fifteenth Districts who run the county where political 

are 

2 leaders /are going to have the money, not going to try to 

3 raise the money, contributors will not put in the money 

4 to mount an assault against the kind of a slate that 

5 I envision would be running from our county if it could 

6 run countywide. Therefore, I think the danger which 

7 you and Mrs. Bothe see thinking in terms of an election 

8 for House of Delegates and so on where it is meaningful 

9 to the politicians really disappears when you think of 

10 the context of this election. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

12 MRS. BOTHE: I know I have spoken to 

13 the point but I would like to call the Commission's 

14 attention to the figures which were sent out to all 

15 of us last week. Baltimore County apparently turned 

16 in about a 25 per cent vote against a constitution. 

17 I think this follows out what I was just saying. I 

18 don't think Mr. Eney or Mr. Case or Dr. Wins low would 

19 get elected at all if the county isn't districted. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

21 MR. SCANLAN: I want to say that certainly 



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* the recommendation of the Committee here is premised 
^ on the assumption or, if you will, a faith that this 
3 election will be truly non-partisan. If we are right 

* in that assumption, then we have made the right 

5 recommendation. If we are wrong in that assumption, if 

6 the politicians in Baltimore County, as Mrs. Bothe seems 
? to fear, get hold of this situation and actually field 

8 the slate while running as non-partisan really being a 

9 partisan slate, we have made the wrong recommendation 
but we can't predict the future, can only hope that 



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" political parties along with other civic groups will 
rise to the level of principle at least in this one 

13 instance and be party to a truly non-partisan election. 

14 i know the figures of my own county show we turned in 

15 over ten to one vote for this Constitution. It certainly 

16 would be far more difficult for us to field a slate of 

17 really qualified citizens if we were forced to draw from 

18 the confines of artificial legislative districts. 

19 MR. BOND: Mr. Scanlan, Mr. Case, and I 

20 all agree as to the facts. We come to a different 

21 conclusion. Speaking of what Al Scanlan just said, I 

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1 agree with him that if people rise to principle we 

2 will get the kind of delegates that we should have in 
5 the convention. But his point of view as to what a 

4. blue ribbon commission and what the people who vote 

5 think a blue ribbon commission should be, I wonder if 

6 there isn't a variance. As to Mr. Case's point, I 

7 agree if there is no money the political machines, as 

8 such, will not be interested. But I would like to point 

9 out in the Fifth Legislative District of Baltimore City 

10 there is $50,000 in pay involved. I can assure Mr. 

11 Case that the political machines of the Fifth Legislative 

12 District of Baltimore City are going to field tickets 

13 of what they consider qualified people, probably ex- 

14 legislators, people who have been active in local and 

15 state government and they will be running under political 

16 aegis. You have $6000, roughly the pay of a delegate, 

17 I think it is rather unrealistic to feel the people 

18 who have been active in electing delegates, 120 times 

19 50 - 

20 MR. SCANLAN: No. 

21 MR. BOND: It is unrealistic to think people 



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1 who have been pushing people for public office for 

2 years are not going to be interested. I think they are 

3 going to be interested. I can certainly feel sure in 

4 my own legislative district a ticket will be fielded 

5 by the people who have been active in "politics." 

6 Second or third, I really disagree with the 

7 Chairman and Mr. Case in that I feel that he and Dr. 

8 Wins low and Mr. Eney would have a much better chance 

9 of getting elected from a district where they are known 

10 and with the help of people who are sympathetic and 

11 who have somewhat the same background. I feel if 

12 Mr. Case, Mr. Eney, Dr. Wins low ran with non-partisan 

13 support, even with the support of the League of Women 

14 Voters -- God bless them — with the amount of money 

15 in Baltimore County, the lower end of the county might 

16 completely sweep them out. I might be wrong but that 

17 is my judgment the way I feel. My last point is I 

18 still feel that there is nothing wrong with pure 

19 democracy. The closer we can get delegates to the 

20 people, I think it is well worth considering. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN; Ready for the question now? 



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1 A vote in favor of the motion is a vote to require that 

2 all delegates, both county and city, run on the basis 

3 of residence in and election by legislation . .' districts 

4 A vote no is a vote in favor of the Committee's 

5 proposal. Ready for the question? All those in favor 

6 signify by show of hands. Contrary. Motion loses five 

7 to fifteen. Any further discussion of Section 1? 

8 MR. CASE: Let the record show this is 

9 the last time I will support Scanlan with such fervor. 

10 MR. SYKES: I assume the Committee and 

11 appropriate authority, when they come to fielding 

12 slates, will bear in mind the concern of Dr. Jenkins 

13 and the necessity for something of an antidote to an 

14 excessively blue ribbon character to any slate that is 

15 fielded if we have any intention of getting elected. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I would echo that. I have 

17 never used the term blue ribbon because I don't 

18 believe that's what we want but I think we do want a 

19 fully qualified convention. 

20 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, how did our 

21 recent vote affect the City of Baltimore? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: That is open. 

2 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Is a motion in order? 

3 I move the delegates from the City of Baltimore be 

4 elected at large also. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? I 

6 didn' t hear it. 

7 MR. SAYRE: Second. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to discuss it, 

9 Mrs. Freedlander? 

10 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I did discuss it before. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scan Ian, do you want 

12 to reply? 

13 MR. SCANLAN: The Commission excepted 

14 Baltimore from the provision permitting the delegates 

15 to come from the county at large. I believe at least 

16 ostensibly because of the size of the delegation, 43. 

17 That's a very large number. I don't have a strong 

18 personal feeling against the motion. We wrestled with 

19 this for some time. There was never much enthusiasm 

20 on the Committee itself for changing the legislative 

21 district arrangement of Baltimore which is an arrangement 



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1 going back to 1867 though districts have been added 

2 whereas legislative districts in the counties are 

3 something new. I have heard Mrs. Freedlander 's reasons 

4 for the support of her motion, I don't say they are 

5 without merit but they don't move me enough to want to 

6 depart from the Committee's report. 

7 MR. BOND: I must confess I disagree with 

8 Mrs. Freedlander again because I think the whole City 

9 of Baltimore, taking her as an example, I feel she could 
10 win in the Fifth Legislative District and I don't think 
*•* she would have a chance if the ticket ran as a whole. 

12 i do feel that that gives much more control to the 

13 people who have been interested in government over the 

14 years. 

15 MR. SYKES: There is a real danger that if 

16 election is held in Baltimore City by districts, there 

17 are going to be some districts where the delegates will 

18 vote the way the Register of Wills and Orphans Court 

19 Judges and Court Clerks and a few of the other entrenched 

20 interests who are going to fight various aspects of the 

21 Constitution will want them to vote but I think that 



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1 risk is far out weighed by the chaotic results that 

2 would occur if you elected at large and by the lack of 

3 confidence in the Commission that would be inspired if 

4 you created new districts that would look like they 

5 are gerrymandered. 

6 MR. GENTRY: I would say you could safely 

7 predict now if the vote were at large in Baltimore 

8 City, you would have all Adams, Aarons, Abrams , and 

9 Browns and no one else would have a chance. 

10 MR. CASE: Going by lot. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? I 

12 would like to ask a question to get it on the record. 

13 Am I correct that there are six delegates in each of the 

14 seven Baltimore City -- 

15 MR SYKES: They vary. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: 42 or 43. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: Six have seven and one has 

18 eight. 

19 MR. BROOKS: Three have eight, two have seven, 

20 one has six. 

21 MRS. BOTHE: There is another consideration. 



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1 That is the possibility of single shooting which will -- 

2 maybe triple or quadruple shooting — 43 people to 

3 vote for, this is bound to happen and it is not good. 

4 This argument applies to the question just defeated as 

5 well but the smaller the number of candidates, the 

6 less possibility or less strength gained by a voter 

7 restricting his vote to less than the full number that 

8 he is entitled to vote for. It certainly is going to 

9 be a more democratic selection with a fewer number of 

10 people. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: Would it be fair to ask 

13 for a preliminary vote from members from Baltimore? 

14 We don't have political bosses in my territory. I would 

15 like to vote with the majority of the Baltimore group. 

16 Could we have a preliminary vote from them? 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know if you have to 

18 take a vote. You have the sense. I am not sure 

19 who are all the Baltimore residents. Mr. Sykes is, Mrs. 

20 Freedlander, Mr. Gentry, Mr. Mindel. Do you want to 

21 state your views? 



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1 MR. MINDEL: I am in favor of voting by 

2 districts. 

3 DR. JENKINS: I can't conceive of voting 
* for 43 people. 

5 MRS. BOTHE: I have expressed my views. 

6 MR. HARGROVE: I can't think of voting 

7 for 42 people. 

8 MR. SCANLAN: In addition to Baltimore 
City's large size, its unique qualities in the political 
arena were also brought to the Committee's attention. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Let ma finish the poll. 

12 Mr. Bond, I think you are the only other one in 

13 Baltimore City. 

1^ MR # BOND: My views are perfectly apparent. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Does that give you your poll? 

1 6 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 

1 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? 

1 Q MRS. FREEDLANDER: I hate to have so many 

fine opponents. I hesitate to argue. I want to point 
out two things. One is special election. There would 



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1 we had 36 candidates who are the House of Delegates, 

2 plus four for the Senate, plus all others we had to 

3 vote for. I am not overwhelmed by the numbers. Plus 

4 the issues . 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question. 

6 Question arises on the motion that the delegates to the 

7 convention from Baltimore City also run citywide instead 

8 of by districts. A vote aye is a vote in favor of 

9 citywide election of delegates from Baltimore City. 

10 Vote no is a vote in favor of the Committee recommenda- 

11 tion that in Baltimore City the delegates be elected 

12 by districts. Vote loses one to nineteen. Any further 

13 discussion, question or motion as to Section 1? I have 

14 only a suggestion, Mr. Scanlan. Based on Mr. Case's 

15 suggestion which gives me a great deal of concern, I 

16 wonder if the Committee might not consider the possible 

17 desirability of drafting this section so that it merely 

18 provides for the election of delegates for the convention 

19 called by the previous act of the General Assembly ratifiec 

20 by the vote so as to avoid any inference that this act 

21 creates an office. 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: That would be perfectly 

2 acceptable to the Committee. I suggest it. 

3 MR. BROOKS: One additional question on 

4 Section 1 has to do with the date of June 6, '67, we 

5 determined before. Apparently there will be a city 

6 election in Baltimore in May, 1967, and there had been 

7 some recommendation by outside groups that this Commission 

8 consider combining the election in the city, statewide 

9 election, if it is to be a special election, on the 

10 same day as city election, first to reduce part of the 

11 expense of a special election and second if voting 

12 machines are anticipated to be used, there may be a 

13 problem of this following so closely on the city 

14 election that the voting machines would still be tied 

15 up. 

16 MR. SCANLAN: There are several reasons 

17 why that suggestion was not acceptable. One, if -- is 

18 it May 6? 

19 MR. BROOKS: We are trying to determine the 

20 date. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: Sometime in May. 



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1 MR. BROOKS: We think in May. 

2 MR. SCANLAN: That would limit the time in 

3 which punitive candidates could file after the General 

4 Assembly enacted the law. If you are going to push 

5 the election back to early May, obviously sometime in 

6 early April people have to get their filing papers in 

7 and judges of elections have to prepare the ballot, 

8 that sort of thi.ng. 

9 Speaking for myself, I don't -- the 

10 Committee has discussed this — I wouldn't like to see 

11 this statewide election for delegates who will serve 

12 in the convention on the important business of passing 

13 a new Constitution, I wouldn't like that election in 

14 any way if it can be avoided intermingled with a city 

15 election in the City of Baltimore despite the slight 

16 saving of money that might be effected if it could be 

17 combined. 

18 MR. BOND: I can say in discussing this with 

19 the Board of Election Supervisors of Baltimore City — 

20 and I was quite concerned — you have a June election, 

21 actually have the canvass, if any protest or recount, 



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have the machines ready in Baltimore City, I don't have 
an answer, I tell you this is a real problem. It is 
usually three to four weeks before the canvass is in. 
If there is a recount, there would be a real problem. 

MR. SCANLAN: There is a possibility for 
paper ballots on the constitutional election in 
Baltimore. 

MR. CIAGETT: What is the basis on which 
they set the date for the mayoralty election? Why 
can't they, with knowledge of this date, set it so 
that problem doesn't arise. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is established in the 
charter. 

MR. BROOKS: We are checking now on what 
date that is. We meant to do it before today. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: For the record, I think 
Mr. Brooks said it was a primary. It was the general. 
The primary is in March. 

MR. HAILE: I hr.ve a suggestion that we 
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1 get support for it, I think that day of the week should 

2 be put in there. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: I agree. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Accepted? 

5 MR. SCANLAN: Yes. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question as to 

7 Section 1? 

8 MR. BOND: The caveat ought to be expressed. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: That will be at the end. 

10 Section 2. 

11 MR. SCANLAN: Section 2 prescribes 

12 qualifications of delegates and reads, of course, 

13 that to be eligible as a delegate to the Convention a 

14 person shall possess all of the qualifications for a 

15 seat in the House of Delegates of Maryland under the 

16 existing Constitution of Maryland, with the further 

17 provision that he may also be a minister or preacher 

18 of the Gospel, or of any religious creed or denomination. 

19 Preachers of the Gospel are not held constitutionally 

20 eligible to be members of the House of Delegates. They 
would be eligible to run and serve as a delegate to the 



21 



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Constitutional Convention. I believe Mr. Hargrove made 
a suggestion in connection with Section 1 that we 
ought to make it clear he doesn't have to have residence 
requirement. I think that's academic now because having 
adopted Section 1 as the Committee recommended it, every- 
body who was over twenty-one and had lived in the county 
or legislative district in the case of Baltimore for the 
required period would possess the necessary qualifica- 
tions for a seat in the House of Delegates. I don't 
think there is any need here to change the language as 
we have it now. 

THE CHAIRMAN: What are the qualifications 
now that would be covered under Section 2? 

MR. SCANLAN: Age. 

MR. BROOKS: Section 9, Article 3, I believe. 

MR. SCANLAN: Nine and 11, no minister or 
preacher of the Gospel would be barred. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Would you state what you 
understand to be the qualifications that would be 
covered under Section 2 as drafted? 

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Section 9 which is the provision of the Constitution 
which now prescribes eligibility in the Senate and 
House of Delegates, he has to be a resident, has to be 
a citizen of the State of Maryland, and he would have 
to have resided for three years next preceding the date 
of his election in the county or in the case of Baltimore 
City in the particular legislative district. He must 
also be twenty-one years of age at the time of his 
election. Also -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: That's it, isn't it? 

MR. CASE: Members of the House or Senate 
couldn't qualify. 

MR. SCANLAN: By giving up their seat. 

MR. CASE: That is right, would have to 
resign their seat. 

MR. SCANLAN: That is right. 

THE CHAIRl.'i N: I am not sure whether they 
could do that because the disqualification is the 
term for which they are elected under the present 
Constitution. 

MR. CASE: They wouldn't be holding any 



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1 office of profit or trust. That is the thing. 

2 MR. SCANLAN: That is correct. 

3 MRS. BOTHE: That's what I was going to 

4 ask. The question about holding an office of profit or 

5 trust or seat in the General Assembly, whether the 

6 Committee had recolved whether or not certain people 

7 holding various offices around the state would be 

8 eligible. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: I believe we, not only the 

10 Committee, but the Commission wrestled with this specific 

H problem. It was determined, I believe, an earlier 

1 2 Attorney General's opinion in connection with the prohi- 

13 bit ion — 

14 HR o BROOKS: We dealt with this problem on 

15 General Assembly members and decided there was a 

16 prohibition in light of research done. We have not 

17 adequately determined at this point what other public 

18 officials can or cannot under the law be delegates. 

19 MRo MILLER: Could we get an opinion from 
the Attoeney General? 



20 



21 THE CHAIRMAN: We had an informal opinion 



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1 from the Attorney General as to the members of the 

2 Legislature. It did not embrace other officers. The 

3 opinion was in all probability they would be barred. 

4 On that basis a bill was introduced to provide a 

5 constitutional amendment which would remove the bar. 

6 It was not passed. 

7 MR. SAYRE: It seems to me we ought to 

8 request an opinion regarding members of any county 

9 council or board of supervisors on a local basis. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I can't hear you. 

11 MR. SAYRE: Wouldn't a member of a board 

12 of supervisors or county council be a civil office? 

13 MR. MARTINEAU: I think there is no point 

14 in trying to discuss here any particular offices. 

15 There are probably more opinions of the Attorney General 

16 on this particular question relating to various offices 

17 over the years than on any other question. It would 

18 be impossible for the Attorney General to give any 

19 full range opinion detailing all offices that would be 

20 barred. If the problem comes up, you can probably 

21 find the answer in the opinions of the Attorney General 



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1 in years gone by. If not, if this is a particular 

2 problem, the question can always be put to the Attorney 

3 General. 

4 MR. SAYRE: My question relates to people 

5 who might seem to be interested in running and they 

6 could be maybe members of a county council or could 

7 be a member of the State Central Committee of the 

8 Democratic or Republican Party. 

9 MR MARTINEAU: These questions have come 

10 up hundreds and hundreds of times. If anybody has a 

11 problem, the first thing to do is ask the lawyer to 

12 check the opinions of the Attorney General. If not, 

13 somebody can get a ruling. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: It is utterly impossible 

15 to answer categorically as to any office and say it 

16 is or isn't. 

17 MR. SYKES: Wouldn't it be desirable to 

18 set out in Section 2 the qualifications mentioned in 

19 Article 3, Section 9, rather than to incorporate them by 

20 reference? Somebody may want to know if he is eligible. 

21 He finds the act. Then he has to go to a lawyer. There 



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are only just a couple of lines. 

MR. SCANLAN: I think we adopted this 
language because it is the language that has been in 
all the bills , earlier bills convening convention of 
1831, '64, '67, and in every piece of legislation that 
was introduced over the last twenty years to convene 
a constitutional convention. Only difference in 
language here is the exception in favor of the minister 
of the Gospel. I agree we could write it affirmatively 
as Mr. Sykes suggests. On the other hand, the publicity 
that would be attendant to the convening of this 



6 

7 

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11 

lp convention certainly will give full notice of the 

requirements of eligibility. 

THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me, this is 

behind my earlier questions, it would be highly desirable 

to have the bill answer all questions to the greatest 

possible extent and not require further explanation. 

If you provided it affirmatively here the qualifications 

are so simple that you would end up with a shorter 

section and would not have to have any special section 

as to minister of the Gospel, et cetera. It seems to 



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1 me the section could be made very explicit and very 
simple. 

3 JUDGE ADKINS: Wouldn't you then eliminate 

4 these peripheral questions such as Bill Sayre has been 

5 raising as to whether other types of contact with the 

6 state would serve to disqualify? 

7 MR. SCANLAN: I don't see how you would 

8 eliminate those. The problem there comes in that a 

9 fellow decides whether he wants to run, the question is 

10 is the office he ic* holds an office of public trust? 

11 I don't think we can eliminate that problem in 

12 particular cases no matter how we state these qualifica- 

13 tions . 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: Two questions whether that 

15 plus this, whether this office is an office of public 

16 trust. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: This has been held by the 

18 Attorney General to be an office of public trust. There 

19 is an earlier opinion on the prohibition convention. 

20 "MRS. FREEDLANDER: It is probably oversight 
you did not put a citizen of Maryland in there. 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: That was not necessary because 

2 we incorporated by reference the qualifications for 

3 House of Delegates one of which is to be a citizen of 

4 the State of Maryland. If we did it Mr. Sykes ' way 

5 or the way the Chairman seems to indicate would be 

6 preferable, we would have to state he be a citizen, 

7 that he resided, and be twenty-one. 

8 MR. SYKES: I would move that the Committee 

9 be given the discretion to take care of the wording 

10 to rewrite Section 2 so as to provide for the qualifica- 

11 tions affirmatively and set out explicitly the substance 

12 of Article 3, Section 9, eliminate the exception in 

13 the last clause, it won't be necessary, and no t do it 

14 by incorporation by reference as the draft does. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

16 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Second. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? 

18 MR. BROOKS: One question. Would you 

19 incorporate also the prohibition, for instance, in 

20 Section 3, "Article 3, Section 17, concerning double 

21 office holding i.n your list of qualifications in this? 



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1 MR. SYKES: I think in order, I don't think 

2 it would make any difference in fact because that has 

3 constitutional significance. To the extent the act was 
4- inconsistent with it the constitution would control. 

5 I do think it would probably be a desirable thing to 

6 make that statutory as well. So as to alert people who 

7 are interested in it to exactly what the situation is 

8 and they wouldn't have to look for the text beyond the 

9 single section here. They would still have to get some 

10 interpretation on doubtful questions but I think that 

11 is a very. good suggestion. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it poses problems 

13 because the limitation on office of profit is in 

14 two different sections and they are not identical. One 

15 is as to the legislative, effective for the term for 

16 which he is elected even though he resigns. I can't 

17 put my finger on the other, I think it is in the 

18 Declaration of Rights, I can't remember the article, 

19 it does not have that limitation as I recall it. Also 

20 you have the fact that it has been suggested that the 

21 existing provisions of the Constitution as to holding 



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1 of off ice are not applicable here because the 

2 Constitutional Convention is over and above the Constitu- 

3 tion. This Commission and this Convention, for instance, 

4 is being called not pursuant to the provisions of the 

5 existing Constitution but in the exercise of the 

6 inherent power of the Legislature. It seems to me you 

7 \70uld pose both drafting problems and other problems 

8 as well if you try to include in this section the 

9 constitutional limitations, whatever they may be. 

10 MR. SYKES: I am satisfied to leave it as 

11 it was. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Your motion would be that 

13 the Section be amended so as to provide that the 

14 qualifications should be citizens of Maryland, age 

15 twenty-one, resident of Maryland for three years and 

16 resident of the county or legislative district from which 

17 he is elected for one year. 

18 MR. SYKES: Right. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

20 'DR. JENKINS: Where does this leave the 

21 civil office of profit or trust? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: That means whatever effect 

2 the constitutional limitations have, they have. 

3 This still is subordinate to them if it is subordinate 

4 to them. Any further discussion? Ready for the 

5 question? Question arises on the motion to direct the 

6 Committee to rephrase Section 2 so as to spell out the 
V qualifications of the delegate to the Constitutional 

8 Convention being citizenship in Maryland, age twenty-one, 

9 residence in the state for three years, residence in 
the county or legislative district for one year. Ready 



10 



H for the question? All those in favor, signify by saying 
aye, contrary, no. Chair is in doubt. Those in favor 

13 please signify by show of hands. Contrary. Motion 

14 carried thirteen to five. Any further questions on 

15 Section 2? 

16 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I apologize 

17 for injecting this thought at this point because I 

18 didn't bring it up before this Committee of which I 

19 v/as a member. I am very happy with their report. 

20 But since I have been thinking the thing over, the 

21 thought comes to me that we might think abott the fact 



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that there is nothing to prevent any crackpot that 

: wants to get his name before the voters if he is a voter who 
is willing to spend $25 for filing. In some of our 

4 municipal governments where the elections are not 

5 partisan, therefore not subject to selection of candidates 

6 by political bodies, some of the city charters have a 

!! 

7 rule that a person to file for councilman from X district 

i 

8 or whatever it may be, he must have signatures of X 

9 number of eligible voters on his petition to file. I 

10 don't know whether that is worthwhile but if we had 

• 

11 such a provision for filing in addition to the $25, it 

12 might cut down some of the crackpots we are undoubtedly 

13 going to have appearing on the ballot. I just offer 

14 that suggestion belatedly because I didn't think of it 

15 when we were talking, when the Committee had its 
i 

16 meetings. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: I gather then if Congressman 

18 Miller's proposal is in the form of amendment, it 

I 

19 i would be, I think, it would fall in the section we are 

20 i about to discuss, Section 3. 

ij 

21 i! THE CHAIRMAN; I think so. 



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1 MR MILLER: Maybe I spoke too early. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead with Section 3. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: Section 3 is the section that 

4 provides for the mechanical qualifications of filing. 

5 Each candidate required to pay a filing fee of $25, 

6 several Boards of Supervisors of Elections in the 

7 various subdivisions accept the filing of the candidates, 

8 regular office hours, period from the effective date 

9 of this act, we don't know what that will be, through 

10 May 1, 1967. Hopefully it could be fairly early in the 

11 legislative session or even if it came rather late, it 

12 would still give time for candidates to file. I believe 

13 that the session ends sometime in the very early part 

14 of April, the regular session. So candidates would 

15 at least have practically a full month to file and make 

16 up their minds to file. 

17 The affidavit referred to there is the 

18 typical nonsubversive activity, affidavit otherwise 

19 required by state law. As Congressman Miller says, we 

20 did not, I "think we did discuss the possibility of requir- 

21 ing nomination petitions but we never reached any 



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1 agreement about making that a further requirement of 

2 filing. The filing fee is modest enough although we 

3 feel setting it higher might deter someone really earnestly 

4 interested in serving in this Convention from filing 

5 yet $25 is a little more than a token filing fee. 

6 I personally have no strong feeling against 

7 some minimum petitions being required if one thought 

8 that that would deter crackpots from running but crackpots 

9 can amass petitions, we do it all the time in Montgomery 

10 County. I don't know what real deterent that is on 

11 people seeking office just doing it — 

12 MR. CASE: Was that a conscious use of 

13 that pronoun? 

14 MR. CLAGETT: One of experience. 

15 DR. JENKINS: Unless debate convinces me 

16 otherwise, I think this is a brilliant suggestion. It 

17 seems to me to have the result not only of eliminating 

18 the publicity seeker, but it would also serve to 

19 eliminate the straw man who might be put up by a 

20 political Boss. 

21 MRS. FREEDIANDER: No. 



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1 DR. JENKINS: If we could get the League of 

2 Women Voters, as somebody said, God bless them, behind 

3 some of these candidates and some other civil 

4 organizations, it might serve to get better quality of 

5 delegates than we would otherwise have. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

7 MR. HARGROVE: I don't know if it is 

8 covered further in the bill, but is there any provision 

9 for withdrawal of candidates? This might be a possibility, 

10 you get a large number — 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That is a different subject. 

12 Let's keep it to this one point at the moment, namely, 

13 whether you should require a petition. Any further 

14 discussion of that point? 

15 MR. MARTINEAU: My only comment is if I 

16 thought the petition would do any good, I would be in 

17 favor of it but it seems inconceivable to me that 

18 any figure we might write in for signatures couldn't 

19 be gathered as easily by the crackpot as anybody else. 

20 I don't think it would do any good. 

21 MR. SAYRE: How do you feel on this, Mr. 



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1 Eney? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I can't imagine that any 

3 reasonable number of signatures you would require would 

4 do a bit of good. If you make the number low enough 

5 so that it is reasonable and feasible, I agree v?ith 

6 comments that almost anybody could get that number of 
V signatures. If you make it high enough to be meaning - 

8 ful, I think you are just putting obstacles in the way 

9 of other candidates. 

10 MR. HARGROVE: I think in addition it would 

H be a litigation breeder which we all know petitions 

12 have. I would think the elimination of any form of 

13 petition would best serve the purpose of this act. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller, you did not 

15 make a motion. In light of discussion, do you want 

16 to? 

17 MR. MILLER: I merely thought we ought 

18 to think about it. I am not sure I am for it. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment with 

20 respect to "Section 3? 

21 MRS. BOTHE: I would make a motion that the 



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1 provision that the candidates have to comply with 

2 Section 15 of Article 85(A) not be included. I 

3 realize that Article 85(A) would require that the people 

4 take the oath but I don't see any reason why we have to 

5 rub it in in the act. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

7 MR. SAYRE: Second. 

8 MR. BOND: I would like to speak to that. 

9 I am not a subversive person but frankly I resent this. 

10 I just don't feel it has any place, I think it bemoans 

11 the whole Constitutional Convention to think that we 

12 would have to put this qualification in. Actually this 

13 article has been under attack in the courts. I don't 

14 know if it is before the Court of Appeals or not at this 

15 point. I don't think it is necessary. 

16 MR. SCANLAN: The statute now requires it. 

17 Whether we put it in or not, it still has to be 

18 furnished. It seems to me if it is going to be required, 

19 it ought to be stated just from the point of view of 

20 making it clear. I don't want my defense of the Committee 

21 language to be in any way suggesting that I am opposed 



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1 to the civil libertarian viewpoint just expressed by 

2 the charming lady on my right. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

4 MRS. BOTHE: I will make a comment. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

6 DR. MICHENER: I point out from the point 

7 of view of political theory you don't want subversive 

8 groups to change a government by force, you should 

9 give them a chance to do it by this process. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

11 MRS. BOTHE: I better leave it on Dr. 

12 Michener's remark. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? 

14 The question arises on the motion to delete the last 

15 clause requiring the filing of an affidavit in accordance 

16 with Section 15 of Article 85(A) . 

17 MR. SCANLAN: Could I say one more word? 

18 I hadn't anticipated this motion or this line of 

19 argument. We want this bill to get through the 

20 Legislature. I hate to invite unnecessary obstacles 

21 and give some of the members down there an opportunity 



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1 to oppose the bill because we have not prescribed the 
usual oath that is dear to the hearts of every one of 

3 them. Since it really doesn't make a great deal of 

difference, I see no harm in keeping it in. You just 

° create the possible hazard that the passage of the 

* bill will be that much harder. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: I think that is quite an 

® important point because we are getting labeled to 

9 some extent as a blue ribbon committee any\7ay and here 
10 is something that somebody can point to showing that 

we are left wing-right wing liberal or something 

1? 

other than what we are. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? 

1^ A vote aye is a vote in favor of deleting from the 

15 section the requirement of an affidavit in the form 

16 prescribed by Section 15 of Article 85(A). I take it 
H that deletion does not eliminate the requirement. In 
1 Q other words, the motion is not, as I understand it, a 
■^ motion to require the section to state affirmatively 

that the affidavit is not required. 



20 



MR. BOND: Let me speak to this one point. 

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1 THE CHAIRMAN: You have spoken. I was 

2 merely stating, as I understand the motion, it leaves 

3 the reference to the section out of the statute and would 

4 leave it subject to the section if it applies, otherwise 

5 not. In other words, I did not understand the motion 

6 to mean that this section should have an affirmative 

7 statement that the affidavit not be required. 

8 MRS. BOTHE: That is correct. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: A vote aye is a vote in 

10 favor of deleting this reference from this section. 

11 All in favor, please signify by showing of hands. 

12 Contrary. Motion is lost, seven to twelve. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: May I raise a question? 

14 In addition to the question raised across the table, I 

15 would like to ask if any provision is made here for 

16 fiDing vacancies should they occur after the close of 

17 the time for filing and time of the election. It is 

18 not inconceivable that some smaller counties — 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: There is a provision later. 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: Okay. 

21 MR. MARTINEAU: Not that. 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: Not to that point. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: You deal with vacancies. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: We deal with vacancies but if you 

4 nominate 16 in my county, 16 file, somebody died or 

5 withdraws — 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: After time for filing but 

7 before election. 

8 MR. SCANLAN: That unlikely contingency 

9 has not been dealt with. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: It is not so unlikely in 

11 some of the smaller counties. It may be in an area 

12 such as yours but in some smaller counties where you 

13 have maybe one or two, you may just have only one or 

14 two to file. If anything happens to that man, that 

15 county would wind up without representation. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to consider that 

17 further? 

18 MR. SCANLAN: Yes, I think we can take care of 

19 that. 

20 * MR HARGROVE: The. other contingency where 

21 you have insufficient number of filings that is possible 



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with this type thing, it is conceivable you might not 
have. It wouldn't be Baltimore City, I am sure. 

MR. SCANLAM: Could we come back to Judge 
Adkins ' suggestion when we reach the question of filing 
vacancies later? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I am perfectly willing to 
leave it with the Committee and not press the Commission's 
time. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let's suspend discussion of 
it and talk about it when we talk about vacancies 
generally. 

MR. HARGROVE: My other point which was 

out of order at the time is probably in order now c 

Perhaps there should be some provision for a date when 

candidates can withdraw and I don't know whether the 

Committee has or has not considered refunds of the 

in 
filing fee such as is present today/ the filing for 

candidates to the House of Delegates. My thought on 

that is that perhaps if you don't give a refund, you 

probably give some serious consideration before filing. 

Then for many reasons people could withdraw. It would 



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make perhaps a more orderly election. It doesn't 
appear to be here. I think perhaps it should. 

MR. SCANLAN: On the question of withdrawal 
later on, we provide for the applicability of the 
election laws generally. I believe that certainly the 
intention would be that the withdrawal situation would 
be covered by the usual period of time applicable in a 
regular election. I don't know — 

MR. HARGROVE: I would think the election 
laws, if you read the various election laws, it probably 
could not do it unless you specifically state it. 
I think each has periods of time, if we use these 
dates, you are going to be in trouble. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Will the Committee take 
it into consideration? 

MR. SCANLAN: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment on 
Section 3? 

MR. MARTINEAU: One thing that I d5.dn't 
catch before, I am not sure whether I mentioned this 
in the Committee or not. Section 3 requires apparently 



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the Board of Election Supervisors to be open every day. 
In many counties they are not. I would think they 
ought to be, there should be the phrase on top of page 
3, on every week day, should be deleted and phrase 
ought to be during regular office hours. 

JUDGE ADKINS: That is good. 

MR. SCANLAN: I didn't realize that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: What about the opposite 
end of that? At this time of the year, would you 
have a situation where the number of days they would be 
open in this limited period of one month would be 
too few? 

MR. M^RTINEAU: I am not sure. My own 
particular county is open every Saturday. I amnot sure 
what the situation is in others. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You wouldn't want the third 
Saturday every month? 

MR. MARTINEAU: Should be at least once a 
week. We should check that to make sure there is 



no gap. 



THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment with 



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1 respect to Section 3? Section 4. 

2 MR. SCANLAN: Section 4 is the section 

3 providing for the publication procedures by the Board of 

4 Election Supervisors, requires them to give public notice 

5 by advertisement of the name of the persons who filed. 

6 In Baltimore City the list would be subdivided according 

7 to the legislative district in which the candidates 

8 filed. And the usual requirement that the notice be in 

9 two newspapers, if there are two newspapers in the 
10 particular subdivision. In Baltimore there is also the 

requirement that a complete list of candidates in all 
legislative districts be published in all daily news- 

13 papers in that city. Then during the period of two 

14 weeks prior to election each board by public advertise- 

15 ment should give notice of list of all polling places 

16 in the county or city as the case may be. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any question? 

18 DR. MICHENER: Without having a partisan 

19 election trying to get people that are very well qualified, 

20 would it be" advisable to provide for publication of, say, 

21 a statement of a hundred words by the person of what he 



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1 considers qualifications for the post? 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: This will be expensive enough. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: I didn't hear that and I 

4 have the feeling I didn't want to hear it. What did 

5 you say? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Michener asked whether 

7 you think or the Committee thinks it would be desirable 

8 to have an added requirement that each candidate publish 

9 a statement of perhaps a hundred words in length stating 

10 his qualifications. 

11 MR. SCANLAN: No. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? Any 

13 further comment? Section 5? 

14 MR. SCANLAN: Section 5 deals with the 

15 mechanics of election. I might as well read this. 

16 Section 5 reads: And be it further enacted, that 

17 the names of all candidates for delegates to the said 

18 Convention in each county and in each legislative 

19 district of Baltimore City shall be printed on a paper 

20 ballot or on the ballot labels for voting machines , 

21 according to the current usage of the several political 



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1 political subdivisions, respectively. The names of all 

2 candidates filing for election as delegates to the 

3 Convention shall be typed on similarly prepared ballots 

4 and during regular office hours on May 2, 1967, in 

5 public, shall be drawn by lot by the chairman of each 

6 Board of Election Supervisors, or his designee, one at 

7 a time, and the names of these candidates shall be 

8 arranged on the ballots or ballot labels in the 

9 numerical order in which they are drawn by lot, as 

10 aforesaid, without any party designation or other 

11 description thereafter. Notwithstanding anything to the 

12 contrary in any of the election laws of this State, 

13 each Board of Supervisors of Elections shall have the 

14 power for this special election and for the referendum 

15 on the adoption of any new constitution, or on any 

16 change or amendments to the existing Constitution, 

17 provided for hereinbelow, to determine the number of 

18 judges and clerks of the election necessary to conduct 

19 the election and referendum in an efficient and orderly 

20 manner, and likewise the power to determine the compensa- 

21 tion paid at the November election, 1966. 



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1 In other words, here we are eliminating the 

2 listing of candidates alphabetically as is done now on' 

3 the ballots as the Committee report indicates, I think, 

4 approved by the Commission before this is an attempt to 

5 eliminate any advantage that sometimes adheres in 

6 having a name beginning with A,B,or C, and especially, 

7 I think, it is especially important that this type 

8 provision be in this election which is a different type 

9 election. We are trying to get best qualified people 

10 but some best qualified people might not be too well 

11 knoxv'n. Whereas if names are listed alphabetically, it 

12 would be possible to have a man successful in the 

13 election with no qualifications other than his name 

14 began with A. As you recall, you have already approved 

15 our recommendation that candidates run from the county 

16 at large so the danger of advantage from alphabetical 

17 listing would be especially great. I think actually 

18 the suggestion of the Committee here might be, one, the 

19 legislature may consider for elections generally. There 

20 is no reason we have to have alphabetical arrangement. 

21 In this type election, we think it especially meritorious 



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1 to have this type provision. 

2 MR. HARGROVE: I might suggest that some 

3 provision should be made for drawing because this just 

4 leaves it to the Supervisor of Elections to make a 

5 drawing. I think it should be notification to 

6 candidates and a drawing in some place they can attend. 

7 MRo SCANLAN: It is required to be in 

8 public. 

9 MR. HARGROVE: That means nothing. I think 

10 notification should be given to the candidates as to 

11 the time and place of drawing because a public drawing 

12 is not much when you don't have anybody there but the 

13 Supervisor of Elections and a few people who operate 

14 his office. You must remember these offices are political 

15 offices and in Baltimore City particularly the placing 

16 of names on the ballot is an art. I think it would be 

17 the same thing here. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: A day certain is specified, 
:: May 2. It has to be a public drawing so the candidates 
: know the day, they know the place, and I assume would 
21 be there. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Wouldn't it be simple enough 

2 to specify a time? 

3 MR. SCANLAN: Yes, would that satisfy, 

4 Mr. Hargrove? 

5 MR. HARGROVE: I think it would because 

6 these election boys are wonderful. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: High noon is suggested. 

8 MRS. BOTHE: I guess I have an interest 

9 in this having gone from "L 11 to "B." There is some 

10 disadvantage to the system because a number of voters 

11 look on the machine for the name of those whom they 

12 want to vote for alphabetically rather than by Line 1-G 

13 or whatever other specifications. Where there are, if 

14 there are a large number of contenders, I think it 

15 will make it more difficult for a voter to find the 

16 people he intends to vote for. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: Just want to break them of 
1 the bad habit of voting alphabetically. 
1: MR, BOND: Somebody might die between the 
: time of filing and time of the drawing of lots. Second 

it isn't the alphabet so important but top and bottom 



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line. Fifty people running looking for somebody if it 
is not alphabetical it is rough. 

DR. BURDETTE: I think the way this could 
be done is to provide legislation that each candidate's 
name so far as possible appear an equal number of times 
in each position among the candidates. This is very 
much more easily done in case of paper ballots and is 
required by law in some states but this does not have 
the disadvantage of a lottery, it gives everybody an 
equal chance. 

MR. SCANLAN: It enormously complicates the 
task. In one precinct, a man will appear in Line 1 
in another he will appear on Line 2. But the problem 
with that is some precincts are much larger than others 
and it is better to have your name on Line 1 in a precinct 
with 3000 voters than a precinct with 800. It raises 
all sorts of other complications. There has to be a 
limit to these things if government is to go on as 
Justice Holmes put it one time. 

' DR. BURDETTE: The impractical thing is if 
you thinkthis is a serious problem, you better pick 



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1 out qualified candidates who have names with beginning 

2 parts of the alphabet. I don't feel strongly about it. 

3 ' THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? 

4 DR. BURDETTE: It is about a 5 per cent 

5 difference? 

6 DR. MICHENER: Line 6 where the reference 

7 is to voting machines, paper ballots to be chosen 

8 according to current usage, this would prohibit 

9 Baltimore City or someone from using paper ballots to 
take care of the eventuality spoken of earlier, voting 

H machines might be tied up. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: I think the answer is if 

13 it turns out that the concern Mr. Bond expressed earlier 

14 Baltimore City election has these machines tied up 

15 because of the canvass, they couldn't have machines 

16 ready on June 6, having a city general election in early 

17 May, I would assume then the Legislature, when this 

18 bill goes before it, by that time we will know that, 

19 would move the date of election instead of June 6, move 

20 it to the middle of June. That can be accommodated. I 

21 don't see any reason for changing the current usage of 



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1 machines or paper ballots as may now prevail in a 

2 particular subdivision for this election. 

3 MR. GENTRY: You are taken care of. If 

4 the machines are tied up, current usage would be to 

5 to paper ballots. 

6 THE CHAIRHAN: Any further discussion? 

7 MRS. BOTHE: On second thought, I move I 

8 the provisions in this Section 5 for a drawing for 

9 position on the ballot be deleted and in their stead 

10 the normal means of placing the names of candidates . 

11 the ballot be employed, alphabetical order. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

13 DR. BURDETTE: Second. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to discuss 

15 it further? 

16 MRS. BOTHE: I really insist I am not 

17 doing this for selfish reasons. I believe somebody s 

18 I think it is true that the position of the name on tl 

19 ballot, maybe they ought to have women first or 

20 something like that, the position of the name, the 

21 alphabetical position is not necessarily the import 



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1 thing. It is actually the position on the line. There 

2 are many instances where a person with a name high in 

3 the alphabet is in a disadvantageous position. I am 

4 thinking more from the standpoint of the voter because 

5 I do think that the voter is going to seek out alpha - 

6 betically those people he is determined to vote for 

7 rather than by number. I am thinking also of the name, 

8 the same situation which is likely to crop up. It is 

9 much easier for a voter where some politician throws 

10 in a contender of the similar name. If you have the 

11 sprinkled system, he will be searching for anybody 

12 named Case and could just as well choose the wrong one. 

13 I really feel that this is going to add a great deal of 

14 confusion and it has never been done before as far as I 

15 know. The act of drawing itself may lead to a lot of 

16 ill feeling. I don't feel that it affords as much 

17 protection as it does confusion. 

: THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

It Mr. Scanlan? 

: "MR. SCANLAN: I gave the reasons the 

21 Committee recommends. 



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1 MR. CASE: What are they again? Mrs. Bothe's 

2 remarks make sense. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: This is to be an at large 

4 election except in the City of Baltimore. Which means 

5 you will have a fair amount of candidates running. We 

6 are all familiar with the alphabetical advantage that 

7 can be gained by candidates whose names begin with 

8 A and B and C. That advantage isn't so great in an 

9 election where the candidates running are well known 

10 having been elected to public office or active in politics, 

11 Even there we have seen especially in Baltimore the 

12 alphabetical game played with considerable success. It 

13 seems to us in an election of this sort the danger of 

14 advantage from alphabetical position is even greater. 

15 For that reason we have made this recommendation. 

16 It is a recommendation tba t is used in 

17 many elections in many cities in many states even 

18 though it may not have been done in Marylm d before. 

19 It is not an innovation in that sense. There are 

20 many precedents for this or versions of it. I don't see 

21 where the drawing, the language is very clear, picks out 



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1 a name, first one out of the hat is Line 1 and so on. 

2 I don't think it will generate any confusion. In 

3 Baltimore where the confusion might be the greatest we 

4 have, the fact that it is divided into legislative 

5 districts and perhaps you wouldn't have a great bulk 

6 of candidates . 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

8 MR. CLAGETT: Having been made aware of 

9 the advantage of "C,V I believe I am going to withdraw 

10 from my position on the Committee and adopt another 

11 one. Not to pun but being a "c" and seeing two "b's" 

12 I think I will go along with thera. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

14 Ready for the question? The question arises as to 

15 whether or not we have to weight the votes of those 

16 whose names are in the last half of the alphabet. 

17 JUDGE ADKINS: Are we disqualified in the 
U first half? 

MR. MARTINEAUs We ought to have a roll 
call. 
21 MR, CASE: I am definitely voting in favor 



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I of it now that you said that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: A vote aye is a vote in favor 

of rewriting this section so as to delete the provisions 
requiring the drawing of names by lot for position on 
I the ballot and leave it to the present lav; which would 

require the names to be arranged in alphabetical order. 

7 Ready for the question? All those in favor, please 

8 signify by show of hands. Contrary. Motion is lost 

9 four to eleven. 

10 MR. SCANLAN: We won't let the record 

II show three B's and one C. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question or 

13 comment as to Section 5? 

14 We move to Section 6. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: Section 6 provides for 

16 judges to count and canvass the ballots and make 

17 applicable except as otherwise provided in the bill for 

18 the general election laws of the state. The canvassing 

19 and then the forwarding of results of the Board of 
: StateCanvassers and certifying of the winners by the 

Governor and all the other election laws that are 



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1 applicable. They are incorporated by reference to the 

2 provisions of this section. 

3 MR. BOND: I can bring up the question of 

4 death. We had two deaths between election day and 

5 taking office in the county. Can't do it by State 

6 Central Committee. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: The problem of disability by 

8 death or whatever the reason between election and 

9 convening of the convention we do deal with later. We 

10 have not dealt with the possibility of vacancy occurring 

11 after the candidates file, equal number for office but 

12 election has not been held and someone dies, which I 

13 believe was Judge Adkins ' question. That we have not 

14 dealt with precisely. Could we deal with that when we 

15 deal with the subject of vacancies generally? 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question as to 

17 Section 6? Section 7. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: Here is the Section containing 

19 usual provisions concerning canvassing and certifying of 

20 votes. It also contains the provisions relating to 
vacancies. I might read that beginning a little below the 



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1 middle of the line on Page 7 of the bill. After 

2 providing that the convention shall determine the validity 

3 of the election qualifications of its members, if until 

4 the time that the convention assembles, there is any 

5 vacancy in the delegation representing any county or 
legislative district, the governor shall appoint a 
person who shall possess the qualifications set by this 

8 act for delegates to the Constitutional Convention to 

9 fill the vacancy. 

10 That is up to the moment the Convention 

11 formally convenes September 2, 1967. Following 

12 election until the actual formal convening on September 

13 11, 1967, the Governor v?ould have the power to appoint 

14 a person as delegate who possessed the necessary 

15 qualifications. Then the language goes on, after the 

16 Convention assembles, if a vacancy in a delegation to 

17 the Convention exists or occurs, then the Convention 

18 shall fill the vacancy. 

19 This is recognized once the Convention is 

20 convened --*! don't like to use the power unto itself -- 

21 but it is representatives of the people assembled and 



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1 the power to determine who shall sit in that body should 

2 be vested in the Convention if there is a vacancy. 

5 We drew the distinction of a vacancy occurring before 

4 the collective representatives of the people gathered 

5 in Convention and vacancy afterwards. 

6 DR. BURDETTE: I should like to suggest to 

7 the Committee that at bottom of Page 7 where the 

8 Convention fills the vacancy that the Convention fill 

9 the vacancy from persons who possess the qualifications 

10 to have been elected. 

11 MR. SCANLAN: I would regard that as a 

12 limitation on the power of the Convention. 

13 DR. BURDETTE °. My reason is I think they 

14 should come from the counties where they were elected 

15 rather than some other point of the state. 

16 MR. SCANLAN: In point of fact it probably 

17 would happen but on the other hand, I think that we 

18 should be very careful in this act in restricting the 

19 Convention's powers. 

20 "JUDGE ADKINS: It doesn't seem to be 

21 unreasonable to restrict them to the point of requiring 



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' that the vacancy be filled from among those persons who 

'• otherwise would have been represented. 

: MR. SAYRE: I think that provision should 

be as provided in accordance with the rules of the 
: Convention. 
(■ THE CHAIRMAN: Since you are getting to this 

much discussion, let f s get a motion. Do you desire to 

make a motion, Dr. Burdette? 
9 DR. BURDETTE: I won't move the exact 

10 language but I move that the Convention fill the 

11 vacancy from persons eligible in the county or district. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Having the residence qualifi- 

13 cations? 

14 DR. BURDETTE: Yes. 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: Second. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to say anything 

17 further to it, Dr. Burdette? 

18 DR. BURDETTE: Some counties will have 
very small representation anyhow and it might be over- 

1 looked. It would somewhat impair the confidence of the 
people in the results of the Convention if there were 



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1 untoward actions. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: I think this problem is 

3 answered by Section 2 saying to be eligible as a 

4: delegate to the Convention a person shall possess X 

5 qualifications. I think that this would necessarily 

6 apply to anybody whom the Governor would appoint or who 

7 would be elected by the Convention. 

8 DR C BURDETTE: In that case you need 

9 eliminate the statement of the Governor. If you put 

10 it in the Governor and not the Convention, the implica- 

11 tion is the Convention is not bound. 

12 MR. CASE: I am not sure it does with respect 

13 to the Governor because the word qualification is 

14 referring back to Section 2 doesn't necessarily mean — 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Section 2 is rewritten. 

16 MR C CASE: I understand it is rewritten 

17 but it doesn't say anything about where the man comes 

18 from. That is contained in an entirely different act. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: That's win t I mean, Section 2 

20 as rewritten today would provide that he have a year's 

21 residence in the district from which he is elected. 



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1 MR. CASE: Can somebody read it? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: The substance of it was that 

3 Section 2 be rephrased to provide to be qualified a 

4 man be a resident of the state, citizen of the state, 

5 have been a resident of the state for three years and 

6 be a resident of the district from which he is elected 

7 fcr one year. 

8 MRo CASE: But he could be all of those 

9 things and still a man, for example, in Baltimore 

10 County delegation could die and the Governor under this 

11 could appoint somebody from Prince Georges County who 

12 would have all those things and still fill the vacancy. 

13 There is nothing in this that says he has to appoint 

14 from the county where the dead man happened to represent 

15 I think this is a fatal weakness. I agree with 

16 Dr. Burdette and I think it is also implicit in the 

17 Governor's right to appoint as well as the Convention. 

18 It ought to be made abundantly clear they have to pick 

19 them from the same political subdivision the deceased 

20 represented*. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: In view of the fact the 



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1 representation provided a county is the representation 

2 to which it is entitled in the House of Delegates by 

3 statute, if he were to appoint a man from Prince 

4 Georges to fill a vacancy in the Baltimore County 

5 delegation to the Convention, he V70uld have in effect 

6 violated the statute. He would be giving Prince 

7 Georges representation to which by law it is not entitled. 

8 MR. CASE: He could delegate them as a 

9 representative of Baltimore County. What harm is done 

10 by putting it in? You got a lot of arguments, some 

11 good, maybe some bum, the way it is written. All you 

12 have to do is clarify it, it seems to me to be perfectly 

13 reasonable. 

14 MR. SCANLAN: It is the intention that 

15 be done. If there is doubt about it, it would be 

16 wise -- 

17 THE CHAIRMAN; I didn't understand you. 

18 Is it your intention to require the Convention as well 

19 as the Governor to select replacements from the same 

20 county or legislative district? 

21 MR. SCANLAN: I would think that that probably 



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1 was our intention that the Convention would do it. 

2 It seemed to us unnecessary to make that express but in 
5 view of the doubts that have been expressed -- 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I see no point in submitting 

5 the motion because that is your intention and the 

6 language be changed to carry it out. 

7 DR. JENKINS: I have a motion. In order 

8 to remove the possibility of political pressure on the 

9 Governor, whoever he may be, I would prefer that the 

10 Convention should fill all vacancies. I move, there- 

11 fore, that we delete beginning with the eighth line from 

12 the bottom the term beginning the Governor shall appoint 

13 a person who sha 11 possess the qualifications set by thi.s 

14 act for delegates to the Constitutional Convention to 

15 fill the vacancy. After the Convention assembles, if 

16 a vacancy in a delegation to the Convention exists or 

17 occurs -- this would then read if until the time the 

18 Convention assembles there is any vacancy in the delega- 

19 tion representing any county or legislative district — 

20 jump to the .bottom line — then the Convention shall 

21 fill the vacancy from a resident of said county or 



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1 legislative district. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

3 MRS. BOTHE: Second. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

5 DR. JENKINS: None. 

6 MRS. BOTHE: I ask Dr. Jenkins if v?e couldn't 

7 just simply delete all that and leave in the last 

8 phrase if a vacancy in a delegation to the Convention 

9 exists or occurs, the Convention shall fill the 

10 vacancy. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it, Dr. Jenkins is 

12 not concerned v?ith the precise language. 

13 DR. JENKINS: It should be from the same 

14 district. 

15 MRS. BOTHE: Add to that from the district 

16 from which the vacancy occurs . 

17 MR. M\RTINEAU: The one difficulty with Dr. 

18 Jenkins' motion would be that I believe the act 

19 contemplates there is going to be a great deal of 

20 activity of* the Convention before it officially convenes. 

21 Since the man couldn't be elected until the Convention 



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: actually convenes, that political subdivision would 

; be unrepresented for that entire period. 

v DR. JENKINS: I realize there are certain 

disadvantages here. I assume there would be very few 
I such vacancies. That the advantages it seems to me 

C would override the disadvantages of which you speak. 

MR. CLAGETT: I have the same question that 

Mr. Martineau raised and he pretty well covered it. 
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

10 MRo CASE: Dr. Jenkins, what would happen 

11 under your proposal if all the delegates were going 

12 down to Annapolis on Ritchie Highway by bus and all of 

13 a sudden somebody dropped a bomb on them and killed 

14 them all or two-thirds of them. There wouldn't be a 

15 Convention, you couldn't get it going again. 

16 MR CLAGETT: Had they signed the affidavit. 

17 JUDGE ADKINS: I have this question. In 
: practical fact how is a Convention going to choose a 
: ; delegate? Is it the presiding officer? Is it going 
; to be the remaining members of the delegation from the 

area involved? I just don't conceive quite how a 



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1 Convention is going to appoint a delegate. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I assume they would provide 

3 some mechanics to do this by their rules, perhaps a 

4 committee to nominate and then elect. But in any event, 

5 their rules V70uld have to govern it . 

6 Any further discussion? 

7 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Instead of eliminating 

8 all those lines that Dr. Jenkins suggested in order to 

9 fulfill the proposal Dr. Burdette presents, why could 
1° we not simply say at the end of this paragraph all 

11 vacancies should be filled from the area in which a 

12 vacancy occurs . 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Jenkins isn't concerned 

14 with language. We can straighten out the language 

15 later. I think he is concerned only with the point of 

16 policy involved which is that all vacancies be filled 

17 by the Convention. 

18 DR. JENKINS: The Convention. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: On that specific point the 

20 Committee indicated its willingness to put the appropriate 

21 language to put in expressly a protection we thought was 



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1 implicit. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

3 Ready for the question? Question arises on the motion 

4 to amend Section 7 so as to provide that the Constitutional. 

5 Convention fills all vacancies after the election whether 

6 occurring before the Convention assembles or thereafter. 

7 A vote aye is a vote in favor of that principle. Are 

8 you ready? All those in favor, please signify by show 

9 of hands. Contrary. Motion is lost five to fifteen. 

10 MR. SCANLAN: I have a comment at this 

11 point with respect to the matter that Judge Adkins 

12 raised. That is the vacancy arising from the fact that 

13 in a county just an equal number of names were filed 

14 and then prior to the election someone dies. Very frankly 

15 we did not consider that hypothetical situation. But 

16 I think it a reasonable interpretation of the 

17 language now written could be used to cover it. In 

18 other words , someone died. Too late to take the name 

19 off the machine or for someone else to file. A county 

20 instead of 'having two delegates only elects one. This 

21 could be construed to permit the Governor to fill that 



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1 vacancy at the time or to not fill it and let the 

2 Convention fill it. More likely he would fill it. I 

3 don't know if this satisfies you or second whether you 

4 agree the language can be construed to cover that 

5 situation even though we admit we didn't have it in mind 

6 when we wrote the language. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: It might in case of death. 

8 I think the more interesting question might arise if 

9 a candidate withdrew within the general election laws 

10 after it was too late to file and a vacancy was thus 

11 created. You can withdraw after the time for filing 

12 has ceased. If the candidate withdrew, it would then 

13 be under the existing rules, as I understand it, the 

14 n governing; .bedy of the party can fill the vacancy thus 

15 created. There would be no provision for that here. 

16 I see no answer to it unless you permit a candidate to 

17 then file by virtue of getting a petition of 200 names 

18 or some such thing. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Isn't that a matter the 

20 Committee have to study further. 

21 MR C SCANLAN: We will have to take a look at 



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1 it. 

2 MR. MILLER: I have one thought where the 

3 weakness in our present set-up is and I get back to the 

4 crackpot. If Joe Doakes is endorsed by all of the. people 

5 in his district, say, a one-man district, and nobody 

6 runs against him except a crackpot and then he 

V dies, those things happen with 142 people. The crackpot, 

8 there is no vacancy, therefore the crackpot becomes 

9 automatically the delegate from that particular 

10 district. It seems to me that is a weakness because 

11 while I am heartily in favor of this being a non-partisan 

12 election, I think it would be a mistake for somebody 

13 to luck in just because there might be none running 

14 against Joe Doakes and he dies but this crackpot goes 

15 in. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan, can you 

17 consider that in connection with the matter you are 

18 considering? Do you follow his point? 

19 MR. SCANLAN: I believe so. 

20 'THE CHAIRMAN: Take a district with three 

21 candidates, four filed. You think that the three who 



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1 are really qualified will be elected but one of those 

2 three dies. The fourth you don't want elected is 

3 automatically elected because he is bound to be among 

4 those chosen. 

5 I think we have all probably had it so 

6 far as this discussion is concerned this afternoon and 

7 we might adjourn. 

8 (The Commission adjourned at 6:10 p.m.) 

9 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's resume consideration 

11 of the Sixth Report of the Committee on Convention 

12 Procedures. Section 7. Is there any further comment? 

13 Section 8? 

14 MR. SCANLAN: Section 8 provides for a number 

15 of things. First is the place of convention which, of 
15 ©urse, will be the City of Annapolis. I believe the 

17 Commission previously approved the selection of that 

18 site for historical as well as practical reasons, 

19 obviously the prime choice with all due deference to 

20 my friends and associates from Baltimore. 

21 The day selected for the Convention to 



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1 convene is September 12. I believe this is one of the 

2 earliest dates under the legislation that the Legislature 

3 passed that we could have. Originally this Committee 

4 had recommended July 4 but in view of the action taken 

5 at the last session of the Legislature, it can be no 

6 earlier than September -- 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: The act actually provides 

8 September 12 now. One act said no earlier than September 

9 1, *67. 

10 MR, SCANLAN: That is right, the second act 

11 actually prescribed Defender's Day which at least has 

12 historical significance and is not much more than 

15 100 years and one month, little less than one month, 

14 from the day the last Constitutional Convention adjourned. 

15 We have provided that it shall continue 

16 in session for no longer than four months. Again I 

17 believe that time period was approved by this Commission 

18 at a previous meeting. There was some feeling on the 

19 Committee that three months would be enough but if 

20 • hearings have to be held, perhaps four months is required. 

21 In any event, in order to put a cutoff date on it, we 



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1 have limited it to four months. The Michigan experience 

2 was that, as I recall, they had a salary of a thousand 

3 dollars a month up to a maximum of $7500. That Convention 

4 lasted exactly seven and a half months. But we have 

5 put a limitation on it so the delegates who do run and 

6 are elected will know just how much time is involved 

7 and can order their personal affairs accordingly and 

8 will not spend forever in endless debate about things. 

9 There is the provision, of course, that 

10 the Governor at least five days before the formal 

11 convening date will proclaim the date and advise every- 

12 body including the public. We come to a provision that 

13 I don't believe has been discussed with this Commission 

14 before. I now read from Line 11, the Governor shall 

15 convene the Convention prior to September 12, 1967, 

16 for the purpose of the election of officers for the 

17 organization of the Convention and its committees, for 

18 the selection of the members of the various committees, 
: . and their chairmen and for the adoption of the rules 

of procedure to be followed by the Convention. It was 
the feeling upon the part of the Committee and others 



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1 that it would be wise to utilize the period between 

2 June, the date of election of the delegates, and 

3 September, to get ready for the Convention so that the 

4 Convention wouldn't be obliged to spend perhaps as much 

5 as its first two or three weeks in organizing itself. 

6 Under the provisions of the bill, as I just stated them, 

7 the Governor could assemble the Convention not in formal 

8 session but could assemble the Convention for the 

9 purposes of drawing up Committees, for the purposes of 

10 drafting their rules of procedure, and selecting their 

11 various committees . So when September 12, 1967, 

12 rolled around, the Convention would be able to get off 

13 promptly on its important business, rather than consum5.ng 

14 rather precious time in organizing itself. 

15 Going on in the bill, we provide that the 

16 President of the Senate of Maryland, of the State 

17 Senate, shall attend upon the initial meeting of the 

18 Convention at the appointed hour and shall act as 

19 Chairman of the Convention until it shall be organized 

20 by the election of a temporary chairman. Hopefully if 

21 the delegates have met under the Governor's call in the 



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1 summer, they will have already selected a temporary 

2 chairman and the President of the Senate of Maryland, 

3 after calling the roll, can return home. 

4 We also provide until the Convention shall 

5 have adopted its rules of procedure, it shall observe 

6 Roberts Rules of Order. I believe, of course, the 

7 Convention should be the judge of what rules it wants 

8 to have, whether it wants to fashion special rules, 

9 whether it wants to adopt the rules of the House of 

10 Delegates and State Senate of Maryland, or House of 

11 Representatives, whatever set of rules it wants to adopt 

12 it can. But until it reaches that point, it seemed to 

13 the Committee a wise thing to have some specific standard 

14 of organisational procedure and rules applicable. The 

15 one that seemed the simplest and the one that probably 

16 most people are most familiar with, of course, is 

17 Roberts Rules of Order. 

18 I believe that is the end of that section. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions? 

20 'DR. MICHENER: After the Convention convenes, 

21 it shall continue in sesssion for no longer than four month 



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1 thereafter? This runs across the holidays, end of the 

2 year. Are you talking about four calendar months or 

3 four months in session? Wouldn't it be clearer if 

4 you put a date by which it had to adjourn, January 

5 12 would be four months from the date. 

6 MR. SCANLAN: That is intended. Would the 

7 word calendar coming between four and months meet your 

8 point? 

9 DR C MICHENER: Yes, or you could say it 

10 shall adjourn by -- 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Michener's suggestion 

12 is to say it shall continue in session no later than 

13 January 12, 1968. 

14 MR C SCANLAN: That is all right. That was 

15 intended and seems to be a little more clear. I think 

16 our Committee would accept that. 

17 MR. GENTRY: If you remember, there was 

18 considerable sentiment for a provision that the length 

19 of the meeting be three months, a one-month extension 
permissible., I think to use, I myself would prefer to 

21 stick with the four month rather than a day limitation 



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1 because that would make it all the more appealable 

2 or what have you, to continue for the full length of 

3 time until January 12 whereas here by using four months 

4 as an absolute, even though ultimately you might get 

5 the same result, I think, there would be more incentive 
g to adjourn earlier if finished. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: I am persuaded by Mr. Gentry's 

8 remarks because there was considerable debate in the 

9 Committee about whether it should be three or four 

10 months and there was some feeling it should be three 

11 with the right to extend itself a month if it wanted 

12 to but finally we gave in and selected the four-month 

13 period hoping that it would be less than that. 

14 I would like to suggest that the word 

15 calendar between the word four and months would accommo- 
15 date Dr. Michener's suggestion. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I would suggest to you that 

18 creates confusion because strictly a calendar month 

19 means a full calendar month of thirty days and that 

20 might mean »four full months in addition to part of the 

21 month. You could do it by saying no longer than 120 



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I calendar days. 

MR. CLAGETT: Couldn't we say shall continue 

3 in session for no longer than three months, in session 

for three months, but shall adjourn not later than January 

: 12, 1968? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: It could but I don't believe 

it would be less confusing. May I make this suggestion? 
I don't think we want to debate the language. The 

9 Committee knows what is desired. If they will rephrase 
10 the language to accomplish the purpose — is there any 

II other question on Section 8? 

12 MR. SAYRE: In regard to Roberts Rules of 

13 Order, shouldn't we refer to the edition probably? 

14 There is another, something similar? Maybe we can 

15 reserve judgment. 

16 MR. SCANLAN: The imposition of Roberts 

17 Rules — 

18 MR. SAYRE: Third Edition or whatever. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: I would assume it would mean 

20 the one tha't was currently in effect, the latest edition, 

21 of course. Anything earlier than the latest edition 



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1 does not constitute Roberts Rules of Order. This is 

2 only for the period when they are organizing. Once 

3 they organize, they can adopt any rules they want. Which 

4 brings us to another problem. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

6 MR. GENTRY: Just one short one. If you 

7 feel that the Governor's right to convene early is 

8 important, be careful which draft you use because the 

9 one I followed says the Governor may convene and the 

10 appendix draft says shall and the other says may. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: The appendix draft is the 

12 one to be used. The other is for the Committee's use. 

13 MRS. BOTHE: I would move the amendment in 

14 the event they don't have a Constitution within four 

15 months that the recommendations of the Commission are 

16 automatically adopted. 

17 MR. CLAGETT: Let's all second that one. 

18 MR. GENTRY: Why wait four months? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? I 

20 would like to ask a question. Under this set-up you 

21 would in effect have two temporary chairmen. I wonder 



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1 why. You will have the President of the Senate acting 

2 as temporary chairman and then elect a temporary chairman 

3 solely to preside to elect a President. 

4 MR. SCANLAN: I don't think the President 

5 of the Senate will be the temporary chairman. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: He is not so named but he 

7 is in fact the temporary chairman. 

8 MR SCANLAN: His function is at the appointed 

9 hour to call the roll and then — 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Shall act as Chairman of 

11 the Convention until it shall be organized. My point 

12 is since I assume in this situation it is unlike a 

13 political convention, you aren't expecting a keynote 

14 speech or anything of the sort, the only function of 

15 the temporary chairman will be to preside until the 

16 President is elected. 

17 MRo SCANLAN: You are right. You are 

18 suggesting we eliminate the words temporary presiding 
Chairman. 

: % THE CHAIRMAN: I would suggest you say 

21 President instead of Chairman because I think the 



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presiding officer of a Constitutional Convention in 
Maryland at least has usually been referred to as 
President. 

MR. SCANIAN: We will accept the Chairman's 
suggestion on that. We will eliminate the word 
temporary and change the word Chairman to President. 
Unless it meets with some objection. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection? In 
other words, it would be that the President of the 
Senate shall attend upon the initial meeting of the 
Convention at the appointed hour and shall have the roll 
of the elected delegates called and shall act as chairman 
of the Convention until it shall be organized by the 
election of a president. 

Is there any further question about the 
section? 

DR MICHEMER: Technically election of a 
Chairman doesn't organize the Convention, does it? It 
takes more than that. 



•MR. HARGROVE: It will be organized before 



that. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN s I take it you don't need the 

2 word organized. You can say until it shall have elected 

3 a President. 

4 MR. SCANLAN: Let's say that. 

5 DR. JENKINS: What happens in the event they 

6 cannot get through with the Constitution in four months? 
V After all, this Commission is slightly behind schedule. 

8 Is there any recourse for legislative action or should 

9 there be -- 

10 MR. SCANLAN: I think in that case 

11 unfortunately the Legislature will not be in session. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: They could call a special 

13 session. 

14 MR. SCANLAN: Yes, by providing the Convention 

15 can stay two more months. 

16 DR. JENKINS: You can always cut off the 
IV payroll. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: This is a debatable question. 

19 There are some who feel the Convention has practically 

20 unlimited p'owers and once having convened can keep itself 

21 in session so long as it wants. 



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MR. HOFF: It can't levy taxes and pay its 
own salary. There is an incentive to cut it off. 

MR. SCANLAN: Yes, the Michigan experience 
suggests \-7hen the cash runs out, the convention goes home 

MR. CLAGETT: The practical answer is 
we will do just as we are doing now. You meet at night, 
until you get through. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? 

MR. MILLER: The Convention could continue 
in session and also continue $50 per diem. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is generally 
thought they would have no power to impose taxes. 

MR. MILLER: In Section 9 we say payment of 
$50 for each day of actual attendance. 

MR. SCANLAN: That f s als> subject to the 
four -month limitation of Section 8. 

MR. MILLER: It doesn't say so. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Wait until we come to 
Section 9. Any further questions on Section 8? 

, MR MINDEL: I suggest we call him the 
presiding officer instead of President. Might refer to 



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1 him as Chairman rather than President. I don't know 

2 if you have a President of a Convention. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Traditionally in Maryland 

4 and, I believe, quite generally he is referred to as the 

5 President. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: It is signed at the end. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: In '67 I know it was and I 

8 think it was true in the earlier ones also. Any further 

9 questions on 8? Section 9. 

10 MR. SCANLAN: First part of Section 9 deals 

11 with the compensation to be paid to the delegates. 

12 I believe this Commission has approved the Committee's 

13 recommendation that the delegates to the Constitutional 

14 Convention shall receive a per diem payment of $50 for 

15 each day's actual attendance upon the sessions of the 
15 Convention or meetings of authorized Committees or 

17 Subcommittees thereof. I believe that per diem payment, 

18 no other payment, no mileage or travel allowance, other 

19 types of expense allowance, corresponds, I thought, 

20 almost identical to what the average compensation of 

21 a member of the House of Delegates gets but, I believe, 



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1 it is about $10 a day short under that. In any event, 

2 it was something that the Commission approved previously 

3 While it is not a large amount at least it 

4 is respectable. Most of the people we hope that are 

5 going to this convention won f t be going for the compen- 

6 sat ion they expect to receive. Many of them, of 

7 course, will lose money by attending giving up their 

8 businesses, their professions, or occupations, whatever 

9 they are doing. $50 per diem payment seems modest 

10 enough. 

11 The second part of Section 9 authorizes the 

12 Convention to appoint a permanent secretary, 

13 parliamentarian, research staff, and such clerks, 

14 stenographers, and employees as it may deem necessary 

15 to the efficient conduct of its business, all of whom 

16 shall receive such compensation as may be fixed by the • 

17 Convention. The Convention may authorize such other 

18 expenditures as seem to it desirable for its work. It 

19 may arrange with the state comptroller for the details 

20 of making expenditures, but it shall not authorize 

21 total expenditures in excess of those provided in the 



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1 budget for its expenses . 

2 In any event, the statute provides it shall 

3 not authorize total expenditures in excess of those 

* provided in the budget for its expenses. Obviously the 

5 Legislature will have to appropriate funds for the 

6 Convention and these appropriations under this 

7 provision could not be exceeded by expenditures incurred 

8 under the authority of the Convention. 

9 MR. BOND: I raise the question about 
appropriations. In the present Constitution there is 



10 



H provision for paying the Legislators. I am concerned 
about that. Take an extreme case. Suppose the 

13 Governor would not put in his budget moneys to carry on 

14 and provide for the Constitutional Convention and 

15 this lavz is passed as is. Is there any V7ay or have you 

16 considered how it would be a self-starter or how do 

17 we get the money to provide not for election but the 

18 actual carrying on of the Convention? 

19 MR. SCANLAN: Two ways. One, would be 

20 included in the budget or, two, it would be the subject 

21 matter of a supplemental appropriation bill. 



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1 MR. BOND: Should we not prepare such an 

2 approach? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: \le have already taken up 

4 with the present Governor the question of starting 

5 the preliminary discussions to include in the budget 

6 which is now in process of preparation an amount for 

7 the next Convention. We told him we would give him a 

8 more definite figure later but at the moment suggested 

9 to him that he use the sum of $1,000,000. He indicated 

10 that the uniform practice has been and undoubtedly will 

11 be that the Bureau of the Budget will proceed in the 

12 usual course with preparation of the budget which means 

13 getting the requests of the various departments and so 

14 forth. This will be one of the items. 

15 No final action will be taken. The day 

16 after the election the Governor elect moves in in this 

17 area and the Budget Bureau then begins reporting to him 

18 because it will be his budget. 

19 If the Governor, whoever he may' be, Governor 

20 elect, should decide not to put an appropriation into 

21 the budget, I don't believe there is any means by which 



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1 you could get funds out of the State Treasury to pay 

2 for the Convention except by means of a supplementary 

3 appropriation bill. We do not anticipate there v;ill 

4 be any difficulty. 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Does that one million dollars 

6 include the $750,000? 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: It does not. We told him 

8 that is a separate problem. I cut you off before you 

9 finished. You mean $750,000 cost of election? 

10 MR. CLAGE1T: I am aware you were aware of 

11 what I was asking. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Unfortunately the record 

13 won't show that. Any further questions on Section 9? 

14 I had a question. Is it sufficiently clear, do you 

15 think that the $50 per diem payment is to be not only 

16 compensation but reimbursement for expenses? What 

17 concerns me is whether there may be some general 

18 provision of state law authorizing state employees or 

19 officers to be reimbursed for out of pocket expenses, 

20 travel or whatnot. I am not sure whether there is or 

21 isn't such a lav; but if there were such a lav;, I would 



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1 be afraid that maybe- this would be construed as compen- 

2 sation and that the application of that law to permit 

3 reimbursement of expenses would be in addition. 

4 MR. SCANLAN: Mr. Chairman, like yourself, 

5 I am not sure whether there is such a law but I am 

6 sure the intention of the Committee was to make $50 per 

7 diem compensation the exclusive compensation. That was 

8 to be all that the delegate gets. I guess the answer 

9 is we have to check the statutes. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Wouldn't it be simpler to 

11 make it clear in that statute whether or not there is 

12 anything else and for matters of public relations also 

13 to spell out that the $50 is a per diem payment covering 

14 compensation and expenses. 

15 MR SCANLAN: Yes, we could do it that way. 

16 That creates other problems. 

17 MR. CIAGETT: No more than this. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: That might indicate you could 

19 get less. 

20 " MR. CLAGETT: Put in $50. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Shall receive for his 



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1 compensation and reimbursement of expenses a per diem 

2 payment of $50. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: Fine. We will add that. 

4 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, would there 

5 be any occasion for the Convention to send delegations 

6 or Committees or something av;ay from Annapolis on a 

7 fact-finding job? 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: I should think there could 

9 be. If we do our work sufficiently well, it might not 
10 be necessary, I don't know. 

H MR. MILLER: The thought I had is that 

12 $50 for expenses and so on might not take extraordinary 

13 expenses. If some members 'were sent to Chicago or 

14 somewhere, it might cost $50 to go there. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: Under the provision which 

16 says the Convention may authorize such other 

17 expenditures as seem to it desirable for its work would 

18 cover the Convention authorizing travel expenses for a 

19 select Committee if it had to go to Chicago as you 

20 suggest. T think we only encumber it by trying to work 

21 out any other language. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other question on this 

2 section? 

3 MR. BOND: I guess the Committee considered 

4 what could be basically unfairness. People from 

5 Western Maryland and from the outer reaches in lower 

6 Eastern Shore actually their net compensation will be 

7 much, much less than those from metropolitan areas of 

8 Baltimore and Washington who commute. Has the Committee 

9 considered that and decided that there should be no 

10 travel allowance? 

11 MR C SCANLAN: We considered that. There 

12 may be -- I think you overstate it -- rather minor 

13 inequities. Hopefully the delegates will remain in 

14 session and some will try to get back to their places 

15 of business. When you start giving a travel allowance, 

16 you get into further red tape and calculations. I 

17 concede that this provision might effect some minor 

18 inequities on those delegates who come from greater 

19 distances but in the interest of simplicity, we arrived 

20 at $50. 

21 MR. C1AGETT: I would say by further comment 



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1 with respect to the amendment as we have it here for 

2 his compensation and expenses would certainly take care 

3 of that item and where he was authorized to go out to 

4 Chicago on a special mission, it would be a Convention 

5 expense. 

6 MR SCANLAN: That is right. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: There would be no problem 

8 taking care of it on that basis. 

9 MR. HARGROVE: Did the Committee consider 

10 that there might be some members of the Convention who 

11 might have to spend a considerable amount of time, for 

12 example, the President and the several other people 

13 who are elected who might have to spend a tremendous 

14 amount of time, I can think of the President being 

15 involved almost ten or twelve or fourteen hours a day, 

16 some additional compensation to them. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: We didn't consider it. My 

18 own personal reaction would be that would be the 

19 price of glory and prestige.. 

20 • MR. CLAGETT: As a matter of fact, we did 

21 consider it along that line. 



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1 MR SCANLAN: I guess we did. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: We also discussed who we 

3 were going to have as President. 

4 MR. SCANLAN: Don't reveal our whole hand. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question on 

6 this section? If not, move on to Section 10. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: Section 10 provides for the 

8 oath the delegates would have to take before entering 

9 upon their duties. I believe in my dear friend here 

10 we will find no objection to this simple oath. VJe 

11 have eliminated all reference to the diety and divine 

12 providence and other divine beings. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: If she doesn't object to it, 

14 I will. 

15 MRS. BOTHE: I will leave it to the Chairman 

16 MR SCANLAN: Don't you object? 

17 MRS. BOTHE: Actually I think it is 

18 superfluous. I don't object to it. As a matter of 

19 fact, Miscellaneous Provisions Committee is the one that 

20 suggested *a general constitutional oath very similar 

21 in language. I don't particularly see the necessity for 



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1 spelling one out here. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry. 

3 MR. GENTRY: Not entirely facetiously but 

4 this oath calls for the support of the Constitution 

5 which they are going to immediately undertake to rewrite. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: Of the United States. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: The Constitution of Maryland 

8 permits people to gather to amend it in a lawful , orderly 

9 way which we hope this Convention will do. 

10 MR, SAYRE: Gives us the right to overthrow 

11 it also. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on 

13 Section 10? My question, Mr. Scanlan, was whether or 

14 not you want the last phrase execute • the office of 

15 delegate to the Constitutional Convention of '67 according 

16 to the Constitution and laws of this state, because 

17 this Convention is not in accordance with the Constitution 

18 of this state. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: That is a serious, you are 

20 suggesting the Convention that has been called in which 

21 these delegates will serve is not in accordance with 



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1 the laws of this state? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I don't say that. I 

3 said according to the Constitution of this state. I 

4 think it would be better to stop simply with the 

5 Constitutional Convention of 1967. Execute the 

6 office of delegate to the Constitution Convention of 

7 1967. 

8 MR. SCANLAN: If we accept the Attorney 

9 General's view that the Legislature under the present 

10 Constitution has the inherent power to call this 

11 Convention, then it is not inaccurate to say that he 

12 will execute his office according to the Constitution 

13 and laws of this state. I am afraid if you leave it 

14 out, you betray a lack of confidence in the legality 

15 of the Convention under the present Constitution. 

16 MR. DELIA: The Constitution now in effect 

17 will still stay in effect until the new Constitution 

18 is evolved and adopted. So wouldn't this be appropriate 

19 to have it in there? 

20 * THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't hear. 

21 MR. DELLA: The Constitution would still be 



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1 in effect until the new Constitution loped a: 

2 adopted by the Convention, t would have to I 

3 something to work with. I would feel the pr: 

4 Constitution veuld be the one guided by or otherwise 

5 you wouldn't havs any Doi election. 

6 Zr.l '. '.-Mi That has been ny , ; ng 

7 only perscr.aliy , my theory cf the Convention anyhow but 

8 I am not raking any notion or suggesting that anybody 

9 make a notion. Merely directing your attention to 

10 it. 

11 MR e CIAGETT: I think this la ; = is 

12 clear that he then under e to do all that. It 

13 doesn't refer back to the past in any way. It seens he 

14 then under. the obligation fr:: chat point on to 

15 go ahcr.: and d; tc the :::: :: hi: jr.tr rent, diligently, 

16 and faithfully, without partiality accord in t tc the 

17 Constitution and lavs cf this state. In that : I 

18 see no re: not tc include it. 

19 JUDGE Al hi::: Suppose you s: og 
21 to lav and* change the whole r : 
21 answer it" ] lerc aust be sc Law ; it. 

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1 MR. SCANLAN: Hopefully. 

2 MR. HARGROVE: This law would be in effect 

3 then . 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: This might conceivably have 

5 some bearing upon the question discussed on t he earlier 

6 section as to whether the Convention could disregard 

V limitation on the length of its session imposed by this 

8 law. Its members would be taking an oath in effect not 

9 to do so . 

10 MR. MARTINEAU: That applies to this phrase 

11 we have in here. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

13 MR C SAYRE: I would move that we do 

14 delete all the words after 1967. I think there is a 

15 question myself. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

17 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Second. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to discuss it 

19 further? 

20 * MR, SAYRE: My succinct point is I don't see 

21 how we damage our rights to act according to the laws 



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1 of the state. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

3 MR. HOFF: I had the feeling that the 

4 deletion of the words Constitution and, if there is any 

5 question about the constitutional provisions K 

6 binding, according to the laws of this state, because 

7 the delegates are elected according to the laws of the 

8 state passed by the Legislature. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept the amendment , 

10 Mr. Sayre? 

11 MR. SAYRE: How does it. rend? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Amendment to be to strik 

13 out the words constitution and, leave in the phrase 

14 according to the laws of this state. 

15 MR. SAYRE! Yes. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander, 

17 MRS. FREEDLANDER: It is redundant because 

18 up above you support the Constitution and Laws thereof, 

19 You are already supporting that in your affirmation. 

20 I seconded it because I thought it was redundant. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: You do not accept the 



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1 amendment? 

2 MRS. FREEDLANDER : Therefore I do not. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

4 MR. SAYRE: This bill itself, I think, will 

5 be the key. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hoff, do you want to 

7 move an amendment to the motion? 

8 MR. HOFF: No, I don't feel that strongly 

9 about it. 

10 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, the office of 

11 a delegate to the Convention is an office which falls 

12 within the present Article 2, Section 6 of the present 

13 Constitution, I suppose. It does set out an oath that 

14 everyone elected or appointed to any office of profit or 

15 trust under this Constitution or under the law shall 

16 take. The oath is very similar to this one but it is 

17 not the same. I suggest that by deleting this oath and 

18 putting the delegates in the same position as all other 

19 people elected to office under the law, we could simplify 

20 and avoid any conflict. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you suggesting an amendment 



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* to the motion? 

2 MRSo BOTHE: I don't know if an amendment 

3 is in order. I would suggest that Section 10 be 

* deleted because it is in conflict with the existing 

5 Constitution. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept it? 

7 MR. SAYRE: That we delete the entire 

8 section? 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

10 MR. SAYRE: I would rather vote it up or 

" down. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

13 Ready for the question? The question arises on the 

14 motion to amend Section 10 by eliminating the closing 

15 phrase according to the Constitution and laws of this 

16 state. Those in favor signify by saying aye. Contrary, 

17 no. Chair is in doubt. Those in favor signify by 

18 show of hands . 

19 MR. CLAGETT: This is what? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Eliminating the last clause 
according to the Constitution and laws of this state. 



21 



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1 Contrary. Motion carried twelve to six. Mrs. Bothe? 

2 MRS. BOTHE: I move deletion altogether of 
5 Section 10. I would call the Commission's attention 

4 to Article 2, Section 6, on Page 12 of the red book. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is the motion seconded? Any 

6 second? Motion dies for want of a second. 

7 MRS. BOTHE: I would like to say one thing 

3 even though I know there is no motion on the floor. 
9 I too am concerned lest there be anything improper 

10 about the legislation which authorizes the Convention. 

11 The way I read this Section 10 would be unconstitutional. . 

12 I think it would be rather foolish of us to suggest an 

13 unconstitutional law to convene a new Constitution. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Why would it be unconstitutional 

15 MRS. EOTHE: Section 6 says what the oath 
15 shall be and says no other oath shall be prescribed and 

17 here we are prescribing another oath. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to remind the 

19 Commission in this connection that very early in our 

20 work we were considering the question of whether the 

21 Constitution and the office of Delegate to the Convention 



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not 

1 was or was/an office of profit under the Constitution 

2 as it is today. The conclusion on that question was 

3 that it was one of doubt. We did not obtain a 

4 formal opinion from the Attorney General. We did consult 

5 the Attorney General informally. He inclined to the 

6 view that the office of delegate would be an office 

7 under the language of the existing Constitution but 

8 said that there was support for the viev; that the 

9 office of delegate to a Constitutional Convention was 

10 an office over and beyond the Constitution. I merely 

11 make that as a comment pending Mrs. Bo the' s suggestion. 

12 MRS. BOTHE: Says Constitution and laws 

13 and this is certainly the law under which a person would 

14 be elected to office of profit or trust. 

15 MR. MARTINEAU: Mr. Chairman, I am now 

16 convinced, and I will second the motion, that the oath 

17 in Section 6 of Article 1 --' 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you renew your motion? 

19 % MRS, BOTHE: Yes. 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: I second it. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Motion to delete the entire 



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9 



1 section. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: To substitute Section 6 

3 of Article -- 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe's motion vzas to 

5 delete this section and allow Article 2 to have its 

6 effect, is that correct? 

7 MRS. BOTKE: The actual effect would be 

8 that delegates would take the oath prescribed in Section 
6 of Article 2. I would just as soon not see any 

10 reference made. 

11 MR. SCANLAN: I will go along with the 

12 amendment provided that Section 10 makes it clear that 
IS the delegate will be required to take the oath now 

14 prescribed by Article 2, Section 6. I think a man 

15 should be advised of an oath he has to take and not 

16 leave it in silence. 

1? MR. HAILE: Correction, Article 1. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I take it Mr. Scanlan 
suggests an amendment instead of deleting this Section, 



20 



21 you would have to provide that the delegates to the 



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1 Constitutional Convention would take the oath prescribed 

2 by Section 6 of Article 2. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: Yes. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you accept the amendment? 

5 MRS. BOTHE: Article 1, I accept it. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: I accept it. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there further discussion? 

8 Ready for the question? Question arises on the motion 

9 to redraft Section 10 so as to provide that delegates 
10 to the Convention shall take the oath prescribed by 

1* Article 1, Section 6, of the present Constitution. All 

12 in favor signify by saying aye. Contrary, no. Ayes 

13 have it. So ordered. Any further question on Section 

14 10? 

15 DR. MICHENER: Under policy of making every- 

16 thing affirmative here I assume the words will be inserted 

17 rather than reference to the Constitution. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: It is a very long section. 

19 * THE CHAIRMAN: I take it the effect of the 

20 motion was not to quote the oath but simply to provide 

21 by reference that the oath prescribed by that section 

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1 be taken? 

2 DR. MICHENER: This is contrary to your 

3 earlier policy. 

4 MR. MARTINEAU: That is only typical. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion 

6 of Section 10. Section 11. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: This, I hope, will be a 

8 noncontroversial section. This section requires the 

9 Convention to keep a journal of its proceedings, reports 

10 to be made, publish them, purpose is to keep the public 

11 and interested officials of this state aware of what 

12 the Convention is doing. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

14 DR. MICHENER: I understood it was inherent 

15 power of a Constitutional Convention to adopt its own 

16 rules of procedure specified in Section 8. Section 11 

17 and 12 attempt to specify certain rules of procedure. 

18 If you do this, it seems to me there is a serious lack 

19 in Section 11 that it should go further and state the 

20 sessions shall be open to the public. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I assume publication means 



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1 communication to the public. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that is Dr. 

3 Michener's point. I think his point is if you are 

4- going to provide this much detail as to the sessions 

5 of the Convention you should provide that the sessions 

6 of the Convention be open to the public. 

V MR. SAYRE: I agree with that. I didn't 

8 realize there was any real doubt about that. You mean 

9 it would be a secret Convention from which the public 

10 would be excluded? 

11 DR. MICHENER: Could be. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: I think you have to have some 

13 faith in people. I can't imagine a Convention of this 

14 state gathering in secret. 

15 MR. SAYRE: It is not a matter of lack of 

16 faith but explicit instruction. I think if we take 
IV the language we put into the legislative department 

18 article, which is also required, that accomplishes the 

19 same purpose we want here. 

20 MR. SCANLAN: If someone has language I am 

21 amenable to listening to it. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: My recollection is that 

2 the legislative article has no express provision that 

3 sessions be public. 

4 MR. SAYRE: That the journal be published. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: That's not being talked about 

6 now. The question here is sessions. 

7 MR. SAYRE: I was referring to Section 11 

8 where we say shall keep a journal of the proceeding 

9 and I thought we meant shall publish such a public journal 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: The suggestion went beyond 

11 thato We were talking about sessions of the Convention. 

12 MR SAYRE: We may have a problem of space 

13 and accommodations and everything else. How far are you 

14 going to extend it? 

15 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I would like to pick up 

16 the second point Dr. Michener made. In Section 8 we 

17 say the Governor shall convene a Convention and so 

18 on for organization of the Convention for election of 

19 members of committees for adoption of rules of order. 

20 VJhy couldn't we just add these two items and do away 

21 with these two sections? 



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1 Add to section 8 where we are talking about rules of 

2 procedures, the matter of a quorum, for instance, 

3 twelve would be a rule of procedure. Keeping a journal 

4 is a procedure rule. 

5 MR. SCANLAN: Keeping of a journal is, I 

6 think, of a different,, it rises beyond the ordinary 

7 procedure rule situation. Making the proceedings of the 

8 Convention public it seems to me is important enough 

9 to warrant a special statutory provision. As Mr. 

10 Hargrove reminded me, it is not only to inform the 

11 public and those interested, but also to provide a 

12 legislative history of these important proceedings. 

13 I think rather than being sandwiched in a long section 

14 which deals with the power of the Convention to prescribe 

15 its procedural rules, its organization, that the duty of 

16 the Convention to keep a journal and publish it, make 

17 it available is something that warrants separate treat- 

18 ment . 

19 » THE CHAIRMAN: I might remind you the 

: Constitutional Convention of 1867 decided not to do this. 
?'- MR. SCANLAN: Not to do what? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Not to keep a journal of 

2 its proceedings and reports, a transcription of its 

3 debates. It was the purpose of the Committee here 

4: to make it clear that was not to be the procedure to be 

5 followed in 1967. 

6 MR. BROOKS: Also the current Rhode Island 

7 Convention is not keeping a journal for all intents and 

8 purposes and that will be a future problem of that 

9 Convention. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment or 

11 question on Section 11? Section 12. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: This is a section that deals 

13 with the number of delegates that constitutes a quorum. 

14 Majority of the whole number of delegates to the 

15 convention shall constitute a quorum for transaction 

16 of business but, of course, a smaller number may 

17 adjourn from day to day, provided, however -- I believe 

18 this section was not in our first draft, put in there 

19 as a result of action taken by this Commission with 

20 respect to one of our prior reports, provided, however, 

21 that a final vote of the Convention approving a proposed 



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1 new Constitution for submittal to the voters of the 

2 state, et cetera, shall require a majority of the 

3 whole number of delegates to the Convention. I 

4 specifically recall Mr. Ridgely Melvin, former member 

5 of this Commission, now on the Circuit Court for Anne 

6 Arundel County, was the author of that proposal. 

V THE CHAIRMAN: Any question? Discussion? 

8 Section 13. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: Section 13 prescribes how the 
10 proposed new Constitution or changes or recommended 

H proposed changes are to go to the people. Certified by 

12 the secretary of the State Board of Election Supervisors 

13 of the various political subdivisions and there will be 

14 a special referendum election on May 14, 1968. I might 

15 add parenthetically if by that time the new Legislature 

16 has moved the primary date back from September to May, 
IV usually I guess it is the first Tuesday in May, then I 

18 suppose there would be no real objection to changing 

19 that date » to have this referendum election held on 

20 primary day much like the referendum on the call of the 

21 Convention was held on the primary, on the September 13 

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2 primary this year. The referendum will be conducted 

2 pursuant to the general election laws except as we have 
recommended modification or change in this act. I 

4 think the rest of it is there for you to read. I won't 

j. take up your time by reading it to you. 

q DR. JENKINS: Mr. Scanlan, how are the 

„ people going to know what is in the Constitution? 

o It is unrealistic to provide for its publication in a 

g newspaper yet there is nothing here which says the 

jlq Convention is required to disseminate its final document. 
11 MR. SCANLAN: Actually the Convention will 

22 adjourn no later than January 12, 1968. Whereas the 

,~ referendum on its adoption or rejection would be con- 

24 ducted five months later. Certainly we hope during 

15 that period of time that people of the state will, one, 

,- be interested enough to inform themselves as to what 

,„ is in it. It will receive a maximum degree of publicity. 

,q I don't know what more one can do to guarantee that the 

ng electorate will know they are going to be called to 
vote on a Constitution. 

22 I don't think we could have the whole 



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1 Constitution written on the ballot or the voting 

2 machines. Hopefully the broadest possible publicity 

3 would be given to the new Constitution both by those 

4 in favor of it and by those who oppose either all or 

5 several of its provisions. 

6 DR. JENKINS: I would suggest to the Committee 

7 that we are specifying so many things here we should 

8 at least specify that the Convention shall give adequate, 

9 the way in which it shall give publicity. 

10 MR. SCANLAN: It won't be the Convention's 

11 function. They will have gone home on January 12, having 

12 done their work. But your point is there should be 

13 some active command in here for somebody to do something 

14 to publicize it. 

15 DR. JENKINS: I think there must be if 

16 the electorate is going to be able to cast an intelligent 

17 vote. This isn't the sort of thing one can summarize or 

18 learn about through editorials in the Sunpapers . 

19 * THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brooks. 

20 MR. BROOKS: I hope that all of you received 

21 a copy of the Florida Constitution that was published 



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1 in their newspaper prior to the election and the news- 

2 papers in Florida did in fact have special editions with 

3 the entire Constitution in it. This is not unusual 

« practice and I would think that if the news papers here 

5 did not do that kind of thing, that the League of 

6 Women Voters as well as probably the Secretary of 

7 State would put out copies for general distribution 

8 for anyone interested. 

9 DR. JENKINS: I simply raise the question. 
10 MR. GENTRY: It is said here the 

1* referendum shall be conducted according to general 

12 election laws of the State of Maryland which requires 

13 publication. 

14 MR. BROOKS: That includes three newspapers 

15 in Baltimore, I believe. 

16 MR. BOND: It seems Mr. Scanlan goes in 

17 great detail on publication of list of delegates. 

18 Why not go to the same detail on publication of the 

19 Constitution? 

20 MR. SCANLAN: I think Mr. Gentry just 

21 answered that. It has to follow the general rules 



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1 regarding methods of publication of referenda which will 

2 insure its publication in at least three news papers 

the 

3 of general circulation throughout/ political subdivision. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan, Inote the last 

5 clause of Section 11 authorizes the Convention to 

6 provide for the publication of any of its other docu- 

7 ments and reports. I take it that the Convention, if 

8 it deemed wise, could authorize preparation and publica- 

9 tion of a summary or explanation? 

10 MR. SCANLAN: I am sure that language would 

11 be broad enough to cover that. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: ' Any further discussion on 

13 13? 

14 DR. BURDETTE: I am a little uncertain 

15 whether the Committee may have considered or whether 

16 this language indicates it has considered the possibility 
IV the Convention might like to submit the Constitution in 

18 part. There is a certain inference here but it seems 

19 to me if it is so that the determination is in the 

20 wrong place. On Page 11 where the sentence begins at 

21 said election, there shall be printed upon each ballot 



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1 or each ballot label such appropriate ballot title or 

2 titles as the Attorney General of the State shall 

3 determine. Does that carry an inference that the Attorney 

4 General could decide that this Constitution is separable 

5 and people could vote on Part A, Part B, Part C? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I suppose not. 

7 DR. BURDETTE: But in any event, has the 

8 Coiraiitt.ee considered leaving to the Convention the 

9 power to do that if it wanted to? 

10 MR. SCANLAN: Do what if it wanted to? 

11 DR. BURDETTE: To divide the Constitution 

12 in such fashion that it could be separated into 

13 parts. In some states this has been necessary in order 

14 to get the Constitution adopted. This is the thing 

15 that defeated the Constitution of New Jersey when it 

16 was first drafted because it was submitted in blocks. 

17 Various parts accumulated enough enemies to defeat it. 

18 This is only a question of strategy but should it be 

19 left to the Convention. 

20 MR. SCANLAN: Answering your several questions 

21 in a row, there is no question that the convention would 



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1 have the power not to submit a whole new Constitution. 

2 Section 13 says if a new Constitition or change or 

3 amendment of the -- it could do any of those things. 

4 The language referring to the Attorney 

5 General's duty to determine the appropriate titles takes 

6 into account the fact that, one, they might submit a whole 

7 new Constitution or, two, they might submit a series of 

8 amendments, in which case he would have to give several 

9 titles, one for each proposed amendment. The Attorney 

10 General — 

11 DR. BURDETTE: That answers it but with 

12 that answer, I suggest the language ought to be clear 

13 because on top of Page 11, third line, there is 

14 language by whom it shall then be submitted. As if it 

15 were one single question, yes or no. 

16 MR. SCANLAN: The "it" refers back to 

17 either a new Constitution, a change, or amendment. 

18 TEE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan, I think 

19 implicit in Dr. Burdette's question is the idea that you 

20 might have a new Cons ti tut ion, not a change or amendment 

21 of existing Constitution but one which the Convention 



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1 might decide to submit to the electorate in parts. 

2 For instance, there may be some article or one section 

3 controversial and the Convention should perhaps decide 

4 that that should be submitted separately to a vote for 

5 approval or rejection. His question is are you fore- 

6 closing this possibility in the language you use? 

7 MR. SCANLAN: Very frankly, I think under 

8 the language used, if the Convention wanted to proceed 

9 along the lines to which you referred, it could do it 

10 simply by proposing a series of amendments that it would 

11 have a title A to amend the present Constitution, 

12 following articles of the present Constitution. Then 

13 it could have a second proposed amendment to amend the 

14 following several articles of the proposed Constitution. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I will give a simple 

16 illustration. Suppose the Convention adopted a new 

17 Constitution but had considerable debate over whether 

18 it should contain a prohibition against lotteries and 

19 decided ttfe new Constitution should be submitted with 

20 the exception of the prohibition against lotteries and 

21 the prohibition against lottery submitted as a separate 



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4 

5 

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7 

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question. Is that what you have in mind? 

DR. BURDETTE: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: It seems he has a point 
that the language you use might prevent that. I don't 
know whether you think it is desirable or not desirable, 
only talking about the language you use. Whether you 
intend it to be prevented or not. 

MR. CLAGETT: I suggest to Mr. Scanlan 
if he substituted for the word "it" in the third 
sentence the two words "the matter" you have the cure. 

THE CHAIRMAN: May I ask this. I think 
what is implicit in Dr. Burdette's motion is language 
which would say that the same shall be forthwith certified 
by the Secretary of State to the Board of Election 
Supervisors and so forth by whom it shall then be 
submitted in the manner specified by the Convention, 
if this is what the Committee means to recommend. 

MR, SCANLAN: I don't think we did. I 
think if the Convention wanted to submit separate 
amendments, it could do so but hopefully it would submit 
one document. We did not take into account, I don't 



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1 think we discussed it in these terms, whether the 

2 Convention itself could segregate out some more 

3 controversial proposals and submit those separately 

4 from the entire Constitution. I for one would not 

5 like to see that. I think it should be a series of 

6 amendments or a whole document. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that answers your 

8 question, Dr. Burdette. Do you want to make a motion? 

9 DR. BURDETTE: I don't feel strongly about 

10 it but I suppose I would move that this matter be left 

11 to the Convention. That the language be drafted to 

12 permit it. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

14 MR. CLAGETT: Second. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to say anything 

16 further? 

17 DR. BURDETTE: It seems to me that we 

18 shouldn't go to the expense in Maryland of having a 

19 Convention which might have several very hot questions. 

20 For example, you suggest lottery. Unicameral Legislature 

21 would be another one. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Pinball machines in Southern 

2 Maryland might be another. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: That would get it through 

4 without trouble. 

5 DR. BURDETTE: We could perhaps get a new 

6 Constitution in a noncon trovers ial section if we 

7 separated the controversial ones from it. But I don't 

8 think we ought to prejudge this . I think we ought to 

9 leave it to people like. us who are in the Convention, 

10 the privilege to deal with this as in their judgment 

11 seems equitable. I would have faith that they would 

12 not engage in sharp practice because that would be 

13 self-defeating. They would try to separate the things 

14 out that would not destroy the body of the Constitution. 

15 MR. SAYRE: I would take the opposite 

16 approach in that if there are these difficulties in 

17 the Convention I assume the Convention would compromise, 

18 bring out a document. If you leave it where one part 

19 may be accepted and another part rejected, you don't 

20 have an integrated Constitution. I think you got to 

21 submit one document. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: In support of Dr. Burdette's 

3 motion I think it is a very practical approach one 

4 which really might be the means by which at least a 

5 substantially new document .would be brought forward 

6 successfully whereas otherwise it might well be 

7 defeated. 

8 MR. BROOKS: I would have to take a different 

9 position which is that you can't really draw a completely 

10 new Constitution with the various articles inter-related 

11 to the extent that this Commission is recommending a 

12 new Constitution and then be in position of having any 

13 one article accepted or another one rejected. It would 

14 leave the resultant Constitution in worse shape than the 

15 present Constitution of Maryland is because one 

16 article would work under one theory and the very next 

17 article that may have been retained from the old Consti- 

18 tution would reta in a different theory. I don't think 

19 it is a practical approach. I think the Constitution 

20 in the case of an overhaul of the significance being 

21 contemplated has to be accepted or rejected in its 



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1 entirety. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

3 Ready for the question? Question arises on the motion 

4 to amend Section 13 so as to provide that a nev7 Consti- 

5 tution may be submitted in parts for the approval or 

6 rejection of the electorate as determined by the 

7 Convention. Ready for the question? Those in favor, 

8 please signify by show of hands. Contrary. Motion is 

9 lost four to fifteen. Any further discussion of 

10 Section 13? 

11 MR. CASE: I have a point. I am not sure 

12 of my ground here so I will put it by way of question 

13 to the distinguished Chairman. 

14 This particular section says in substance 

15 that the Convention can propose an amendment. Let's 

16 assume for purposes of discussion here that the only 

17 thing that the Convention feels it really wants to 

18 adopt are the budget amendments talked about this 

* 

19 morning. I am using that only for purposes of illustra- 

20 tion. 

21 MRo SCANLAN: 0bv5.ously a very hypothetical 



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1 example. 

2 MR. CASE: And that is all. Under the 

3 Section 13 apparently this could go forward as an amend - 
4r ment to the existing Constitution. My question is 

5 this. Is this a valid way to do it in view of the fact 

6 that the present Constitution would still be in force 

7 and effect and Article 14, Section 2, deals with the 

8 method of amending the Constitution. Unfortunately, 

9 the Convention which this bill envisages will not be 

10 the Convention that Section 2 of Article 14 talks 

11 about. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: I think you are sneaking 

13 around to your perennial objection, I won't say objection, 
14r your skepticism about the legality of the Convention 

15 itself. 

16 MR. CASE: No, this is a different point. 

17 The point is assuming the Convention is perfectly 

18 legal and valid to produce a new document, but they for 

19 some, reason don't come up with a new document, as this 

20 section suggests they might not, but only come up with 

21 an amendment. Now they are going to propose an amendment. 



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1 And that's all. The present Constitution says that an 

2 amendment can be proposed by Convention but the Conven- 

3 tion that the Constitution talks about is an entirely 

4 different type of Convention composed of different 

5 people and set up in a different way than this Convention 

6 would be. I am questioning now whether or not the 

7 amendment would be a valid amendment, whether it would 

8 be meaningful. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: I think the greater includes 

10 the lesser and if one accepts the assumption, the 

11 Legislature has inherent power to convene that Convention 

12 and delegates who go there to serve in it are acting 

13 within powers, acting within the scope of constitutional 

14 authority and exercising inherent right of the people 

15 to change their constitutional form of government, if 

16 they can change it completely, I think they can change 

17 it in part. 

18 MR. CASEr I don't have with me the opinion 

19 of the Attorney General you recall was given to the 

20 Governor before the appointment of this Commission.. You 

21 will recall that that opinion of the Attorney General 



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1 stated that the Legislature had the inherent power to 

2 call a Constitutional Convention independently of 

3 Article 14, Section 2. My recollection is that his 
4- opinion said for the purpose of altering by amendment 

5 or rewriting the Constitution, I don't mean those 

6 precise words . 

7 MR. BROOKS: There is a fine line, you 

8 might say, between amendment and drawing a new Constitution 

9 in that even if you wanted to adopt only the budgetary 

10 provisions, you could do it, if not by amendment, by 

11 submitting a new Constitution that is precisely like 

12 the old except this exception. 

13 MR. CASE: I appreciate that and certainly 

14 that would be the technical way around it, but 

15 certainly it flies in the very teeth of the existing 

16 Constitution, as far as amendments are concerned. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment or 

18 discussion? Do you have a motion? 

19 ■ MR. CASE: I merely raise the question for 

20 the record because if the so-called amendment, if an 

21 amendment is adopted and thrown out, I don't want anybody 



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1 to say to me you didn't know what you v;ere doing. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? 

3 MRS. BOTHE: In view of Mr. Scanlan's 

4 view that it would be inimical to have a piecemeal 

5 Constitution proposed to the voters, I wonder why the 

6 Committee feels it necessary to refer to the possibility 

7 of amending the Constitution in the Convention. 

8 Certainly that's not what anybody is aiming to achieve 

9 by this convention. Why not just delete the reference 

10 to amendments . 

11 MR SCANLAN: I think naturally most of 

12 us here hope that the Constitutional Convent ion, when 

13 it completes its work, will have come up with a new 

14 charter of government. You don't always get the best 

15 of all things in this world. It is very possible that 

16 even in the realm of probability that we will have four 

17 months of a hard working Convention that can agree on 

18 a number of fundamental changes in the government of 

* 

19 this state but cannot necessarily agree on an entirely 

20 new document. I think at least we should have the bene- 

21 fit of what they agreed upon. If they agreed, for 



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1 instance, on reform of fiscal section, budget section 

2 and judiciary and Legislature, but couldn't agree on 

3 a new executive article or any other article, I still 
* think it will not have been what we hoped for but it 

5 will still be worthwhile to have these changes put to 

6 the people. 

7 MR. CASE: To obviate the point I make, why 

8 not provide in substance the things Mr. Brooks said by 
» requiring at least a complete document to be submitted 

*0 and those points that couldn't be agreed upon be included 

H and the new points be included so that you don't have 

1* an amendment submitted to the people but you have a 

13 Constitution submitted to the people? V.'hat is 

14 wrong with that? 

15 MR. SCANLAN: I think Mr. Brooks was 

16 trying to meet your technical point. 

17 MR, CASE: Perhaps so but it is better to 

1 8 meet the technical point with a technical approach and 

19 have success than fall down completely with just an 
amendment. This invites, as I sec it, the possibility 



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21 of submitting an amendment. I am saying to you that 



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I think, I am certain this will be challenged. 

MR.. SCANLAN: I am not so sure of that. 

MR. CASE: I will challenge it. I will 
make it certain if I am still here just to remove that 
argument .from the context of what we are discussing. 

MR. SCANLAN: Can't remove it that way. 
In any event, if it turns out the Convention completes 
its work and does not come up with a new document and 
at that time it is the considered judgment of members 
of the Convention plus the considered judgment , say , of 
the Attorney General, whoever he may be, and Governor 
at that time, that your somewhat conjectural point has 
any validity, I assume they could very easily do what 
Mr. Brooks suggested they could do. No need for us 
to put in the document. On the other hand, if they 
agree with me that your point approaches the spurious 
there would be no need to do that . They can make the 
judgment at that time. 

MR. CASE: What harm would be done by doing 
exactly what Mr. Brooks suggested , where would you lose 
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1 MR. SCANLAN: I think if you start drafting 

2 language which indicates they have to come up with a 

3 complete Constitution, this suggests that unless they 

4 come up with a complete Constitution, they can't come 

5 up with anything. It is entirely possible that they 

6 might not reach agreement on a complete Constitution. 

7 DR. MICHENER: Mr. Scanlan, in reference 

8 to question about it on Line 3, Page 11, says the power 

9 to enact the whole implied power to do the lesser. 

10 Why do you think differently in this instance? 

11 MR. SCANLAN: I don't get your point. 

12 DR C MICHENER: Here they specified 

13 Constitution or amendment. You said no need to 

14 specify amendment because they had power to adopt a 

15 Constitution and had the power to propose amendments. 

16 Why do you feel differently on this point now? They 

17 have the power to draft a full document, by your logic 

18 a few minutes ago, they would have power to draft amend- 

19 ments . 

20 MR SCANLAN: I agree but I don't understand 

21 the inconsistency. 



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1 DR. MICHENER: Your objection? 

2 MR. SCANLAN: My objection to Mr. Case's 

3 point? 

4: DR. MICHENER: To just specifying that they 

5 shall draw up a document, new Constitution, which \70uld 

6 imply they had power to do the lesser thing. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: No, I am not so sure that's 

8 true. If this Commission is to draft a complete 

9 Constitution, then the argument can be made that they 

10 are commissioned to do no other thing, that they must 

11 draft a new Constitution or they draft nothing. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question or 

13 comment? Any motions as to Section 13? 

14 MR. CASE: You are convinced in your own 

15 mind based upon the research that you and your Committee 

16 have done that the Constitution can be amended in this 

17 way? 

MR. SCANLAN: Let's put it this way. No 

matter how you cut it, the questions you have raised 
relate to the skepticism that some have — and you 
voiced it early in the meetings of this Commission — of 



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1 the legal basis on which this whole Convention is to be 

2 convened. If you are right, and your skepticism turns 
out to be correct, then clearly the whole procedure is 

4 illegal. 

5 MR. CASE: No, this is a completely 

6 erroneous interpretation of what I am saying in an 

V effort to protect your particular provision here. All 

8 I am trying to do is to see or hopefully see that this 

9 thing doesn't go down the drain by reason of some 

10 mistake we make now. I am not arguing with you. I am 

+* trying to be helpful in the sense that if we can obviate 

12 a bum argument which would come up later, now is the 

13 time to do it in this bill. Let's face the fact that 

14 if there are two ways of doing something, one which will 

15 cut away the arguments and won't hurt anything, this 

16 is the thing we ought to do. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: There I will have to rest 

18 with the opinion of the Attorney General to which Mr. 

19 Eney refer.red. 

20 MR # CASE: I will add I don't share the 
skepticism, you say some -- I suppose you speak of me — 



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1 I have no skepticism about the validity of the Consti- 

2 tutional Convention or its power to bring in a new 

3 document. All I am saying is I do have some genuine 

4 doubt about the power of this Convention just to 

5 bring in an amendment when the Constitution itself 

6 specifically provides how amendments as distinguished 

7 from new documents shall be brought forth. If you 

8 just am^nd, then it seems to me the arguments will 

9 be made, you are thrown back on the existing Constitution 

10 and not having followed the procedures set forth 

11 therein, you are hung up. I am saying to you if it is 

12 possible to cut the ground away from that argument now, 

13 now is the time to do it. 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: The thing that confuses me 

15 about this discussion is I dont see how this bill, 

16 which is in essence a housekeeping bill, can in any 

17 way affect the powers of the Constitutional Convention. 

18 No matter what you put in this bill, the Constitutional 

19 Convention, if it is legally called, either has the 

20 power or it does not have the power to submit an 

21 amendment . 



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1 I don't see how anything said in this bill is going to 

2 affect that question. It seems to me to be a complete 

3 booby trap operation. Am I wrong on this? I don't 
* really think it matters what you say here insofar as the 

5 manner in which the bill shall be submitted by the 

6 Convention. That is a matter for the Convention once 

7 the Convention comes into being. If it is constitutionally 

8 in being, they can decide how it will be submitted. 

9 If not constitutionally in being, no matter what you 
say here, it will make no difference. 

H MR. SCANLAN: I am inclined to agree with 

12 that. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: This argument would seem to 

14 rae to be more or less moot. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: I think you are right. In 

16 the true sense, the constitutional sense, the argument 

17 may be a moot one. On the other hand, it seems to us 

18 to do no harm to specify in the bill the way we would 

19 like the Convention to behave even though we concede 
they have the power to behave differently if they so 



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probably could submit it to the voters the way they 
wanted to. 

MRS BOTHE: The objection, I think, is 
Judge Adkins, that Section 13 the way it is worded is 
an invitation to the Convention to do less than 
produce a new document. It can produce a new document 
which is somewhat the same as the present one with 
amendments but at least it is an entire new document or 
taken to the voters as an entirety. Since nobody wants 
to do it, I don't want to make another notion I feel 
constrained to, I will move that the words change or 
amend be deleted from Page 2, Section 13, and that the 
sense otherwise of Section 13 be that a new Constitution 
and only a new Constitution be proposed and that the 
provisions of that Section apply to the proposal of an 
entire new Constitution. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is the motion seconded? 

MR. CASE: I second it. 

MR. SAYRE: I would oppose this deletion 
on the basis of exactly the arguments of Judge Adkins 
and Mr. Scanlan. Suppose that we simply have an amendment 



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1 to the Constitution and we submit the entire Constitution 

2 with this amendment to the people. If you vote that 

3 Constitution down, wc don't have a Constitution. So 

4 the only way you can submit it is have an amendment if 

5 you are going to have an amendment , otherwise it has 

6 to be a new document. 

7 MR. CASE: You have the existing Constitution. 

8 MR. SAYRE: You don't have the existing 

9 Constitution if you submit the existing Constitution 

10 which is turned down. 

11 MR. CASE: Certainly you have the existing 
one. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't argue about it. Any 

14 further debate? 

15 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I don't see 

16 that this language as written now obviates or restricts 

17 the Convention from acting in any way it sees fit. 

18 Either by way of amendment or by new document or new 

19 document which is an amendment. Therefore, we are 

20 really doing something that is unnecessary. 

21 MR. HOFF: Echoing your former query, do 



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we really have the authority to make such limitation 
under the legislative authority we have? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I follow you. 
Do we have the authority to do what? 

MR. HOFF: To eliminate the possibility of 
a Convention coming in with an amendment. 

MR. DELIA: Convention is supreme power. 

MR. BROOKS: We are not deleting that 
opportunity or their freedom to do so if you follow 
what Judge Adkins was saying in that they have the power 
regardless of what we say pro or con. Whether they are 
to come back with amendments or a whole new document, 
they can still come back with whatever they like. 

MR. MARTI NEAU: I think I agree with Judge 
Adkins and Mr. Scanlan. I don't think you can control 
it but I think you are inviting the bum argument if you 
do take out the language that we have here and merely 
provide only that they can come in with a complete new 
document. I think you are inevitably inviting a contest 
over whether, they can come in with anything less than 
that. I think my research in the law of constitutional 



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1 conventions would indicate that you cannot so restrict 

2 a constitutional convention. I would hate to see this 

3 bill attempt to do so. 

4 DR. JENKINS: I am not a lawyer but it is 

5 very clear here, in the present Constitution, it says 

6 any constitution, two ways of submitting amendments, 

7 one, the normal way, one by constitutional convention. . 

8 Any constitution or change or amendment of the existing 

9 constitution which may be adopted by such convention. 

10 It is quite clear that as Judge Adkins says, this 

11 law would not be, the proposed statute would not be 

12 overriding. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

14 Ready for the question? Question arises on the motion 

15 to amend Section 13 so as to eliminate any reference 

16 to change or amendment of the existing constitution. A 

17 vote aye is a vote in favor of eliminating those words. 

18 All in favor, please signify by show of hands. Contrary 

19 The motion is lost five to thirteen. Any further 

20 discussion of Section 13? Section 14. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: Section 14 is that provision 



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1 of the statute which authorizes the Convention to 

2 prepare a schedule of when various provis ions of the 

3 Constitution would take effect. Some might take effect 

4 at different times and it is necessary to have some 

5 order spelled out. We give the Convention here the 

6 power to prepare such schedule. The schedule to be 

7 attached to the proposed Constitution and will be sub- 

8 mitted to the electorate to be ratified at the same 

9 time as the Constitution. 

10 However, the schedule will not in itself 

11 be a constitutional provision or provisions. It will 

12 have the same effect as a general public law. If for 

13 reasons that become manifest to the General Assembly 

14 after the schedule had been ratified that some of its 

15 provisions should be accelerated or others deferred, 

16 then the schedule could be amended by the Legislature 

17 to accommodate the situation. 

18 MR. KOFF: Suppose the Legislature was 

19 anti-new constitution and deferred effective date of 

20 all provisions of the Constitution until December 1, 1998 

21 MR. SCANLAN: I thiak that would be an 



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1 abuse of the legislative power. 

2 MR. SAYRE: It would not be binding on the 

3 following session. 

4 DR.MICHENER: The way this is worded now 

5 seems to me to be ambiguous. The way it is stated it 

6 could be ratified at the same time as the Constitution 

7 which implies you might have separate vote. You want 

8 to be attached to the proposed Constitution at the 

9 time it, referring to the proposed Constitution, is 

10 submitted to the electorate to be ratified. It seems 

11 to be a serious mistake because if this has the 

12 effect of a general law you should not have votes cast 

13 against the Constitution because the electorate doesn't 

14 like the general statute which can be amended. I don't 

15 think it should be submitted at all because if people 

16 don't like these provisions the way they vote against 

17 them is to vote against the Constitution and you will 

18 compound your negative vote. 

19 * MR. BROOKS: The practice of having 

20 schedules has been rather spotted in other states. The 

21 statutory authorization has been almost nonexistent for 



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1 such schedules but by more or less American common law 

2 tradition such schedules have been adopted as statutory 

3 materials. The enabling legislation for the most 
* part has not provided for such schedules even where 

5 these schedules have been provided for by constitutional 

6 conventions. I think really this is another one of the 

7 points where if this bill said nothing, the Constitutional 

8 Convention can provide for the schedule arrangement. 

9 On the other hand, I think it should be 
clarified initially and in this case rather than a 

H negative suggestion as was suggested in Section 13, 

** a positive suggestion that the Convention in fact 

13 utilize a schedule should be stated here. I think the 

14 limitation of what the effect of the schedule is that 

15 it is only worthy of law rather than of constitutional 

16 standing, should be spelled out in advance. 

IV THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment? 

18 Mr. Hoff? 

19 * MR. HOFF: I think you are giving the 

20 Legislature the power by deferring the effective date 

21 of any provision the power of veto over a constitutional 

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1 provision. I don't think that's right. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean if the schedule 

3 provides for a deferring of the effective date? 

4 MR C KOFF: Yes. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Isn't that a question if I 

6 followed Mr. Brooks' suggestion that the Convention 

7 would consider in adopting a schedule or in the language 

8 of the schedule. 

9 MR. BROOKS: The Constitution itself will 

10 state the date upon ratification that it will go into 

11 effect. That would not be a schedule item. The 

12 schedule, however , would provide for, for instance, a 

13 carry-over of legislative and executive and juducial 

14 salaries since they are being eliminated from the 

15 present Constitution until such time as the Legislature 

16 has an opportunity to provide some kind of law to replace 

17 what otherwise has been in the Constitution theretofore. 

18 That's the kind of material that would be in a schedule. 

» 

19 JUDGE ADKINS : Does this word schedule have 

20 a sufficiently precise meaning in constitutional law 

21 to be intelligible? A schedule to me normally means a 



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1 train schedule. 

2 MR. BROOKS: I believe it is a term of 

3 art at this stage. 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: Does it mean enough to be 

5 sufficient here without further definition? What does 

6 it mean precisely, talking about time schedule? 

7 MRo BROOKS: Not necessarily. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a misnomer in the sense 

9 in which we have been using it. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: You are satisfied that just 

** using the term schedule without more — 

12 MR. BROOKS: It is a term of art sufficiently 

13 definable not to require further definition. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: He is more satisfied on 

15 that than the Chairman is. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: If it means interim leg is la - 

17 tion, then I understand, by what you are saying. 

18 MR. BROOKS: That is right. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Transitional. 

20 MR. BROOKS: Transitional legislation. 

21 MR. BOND: .1 move that Section 14 be deleted. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

2 MR. MILLER: Second. 

3 MR. BOND: My reason is I don't understand 

4 it. I understand you have to have transitional Laws and 

5 I understand you have to have that but I feel the 

6 Convention itself could take care of its effective date. 
V I hate, to muddy the waters by throwing in something the 
8 Legislature can foul up the works of the Constitutional 

Convention. I heard Mr. Brooks and Mr. Scanlan both 
say it has not been utilized in other states. 
H MR. BROOKS: We are saying in regard to 

12 legislative salaries which are presently provided for 

13 in the legislative article of the present Constitution 

14 that a legislature may not set its own salaries. One 

15 thing that will have to be in the schedule, if not in 

16 the Constitution, will be some provision for the 

IV salaries of that legislature which is in session at the 

18 time this Constitution goes into effect since it cannot 

19 under any circumstances provide its own salary. There- 

« 

20 fore, there is no salary provided for that legislature 

21 until maybe three years after the Constitution goes into 
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* MR. BOND: Am I correct in understanding that 

2 the Constitutional Convention can set its ov;n schedule? 

3 MR. BROOKS: This is questionable in Maryland 

* because although this is practiced outside of Maryland 
5 and very common practice to provide schedules, no 

* schedule has heretofore been provided in Maryland and 
7 we thought it should be clarified for that reason. 

® MR. BOND: You mean the earlier conventions? 

9 MR. BROOKS: That is right, this is not 

Maryland practice but it is practice in other states. 
11 MR. CASE: Mr. Chairman, I must confess I 

■*•* support Mr. Bond's motion for the same reason that he 

13 does. Icbn't think that any -- drawing on Mr. Brooks' 

14 observation -- that there has never been any such thing 

15 as this in the state, it seems to me that the Legislature 
l^ and people who deal with this subject are not going to 

1? know what the word schedule really means. 

18 I would be in favor of some provision in 

* 

19 here of- providing for the transitional period but to 

define it by the word schedule leaves me very cold. I 
don't know what I am voting for. I have seen a sample 



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1 of schedule here which Bob Martineau handed Dale Adkins 

2 and myself but if it is a word of art, it has escaped 

3 my ken in twenty-five years of practice of law in this 

4 state. I don't know what it means. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, I think your 

6 comment goes beyond Mr. Bond's motion, as I understand 

7 it . He moves to delete the section not because of lack 

8 of clarity of the term schedule, but because he thinks 

9 the Convention would have the inherent power. I take 

10 it what your suggestion is that there be a section 

11 providing for a schedule by spelling out what you mean 

12 when you say schedule. 

13 MR. CASE: That is right. 

14 MR. BOND: I would accept an amendment 

15 because I don't understand what the words mean there. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: I forgot who seconded your 

17 motion. 

18 MR. MILLER: I seconded it. 

19 • THE CHAIRMAN: Would you accept the amendment? 

20 MR. MILLER: Yes, I accept anything. 

21 MR. CASE: I offer an amendment which is 



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1 not in precise or definitive language that the section 

2 be re-referred to the Committee with direction to 

3 draft a provision dealing with transition which is more 

4 meaningful to Maryland lawyers , garden variety type, of 

5 which I am one, than the word schedule. 

6 MR. BOND: I accept the amendment. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

8 Ready for the question? All those in -- do you want 

9 to make a comment? 

10 MR. SCANIAN: No. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of the 

12 motion, signify by saying aye. Contrary, no. Chair is 

13 in doubt. All in favor, signify by show of hands. 

14 Contrary. Motion is carried thirteen to six. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: Can I ask Dick a question? 

16 Would his problem be solved if we insert the words 

17 after schedule where it appears in the second line of 

18 proposed Section 14, proposed schedule of transitional 

19 legislation? I think we will -- 

20 MR. CASE: I find myself in the peculiar 

21 situation of saying the matter is in your hands. 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: Thank you very much. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Section 15. 

3 DR. MICHENER: I hate to bring it up but the 

4 discussion was never resolved about whether the 

5 schedule shoiid be presented to the voters for ratifica- 

6 tion. I know I can't move it but I would hate to see 

7 that lost. It might help defeat the Constitution. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: I will rule that the whole 

9 matter of the schedule is back in the lap of the Committee 

10 for consideration and report back to the Commission. 

11 Section 15. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: Section 15 is the section which 

13 declares this act would be an emergency measure. Of 

14 course, if passed by three-fifths of the composition of 

15 the two Houses of the General Assembly will take effect 

16 on the date of its passage, as I indicated earlier. 

17 Mr. Case raised the question earlier. We made it 

18 emergency legislation in order to insure there would be 

19 a sufficient amount of time from the date the law became 

20 effective and the election date of June 6, 1967, for 

21 delegates to file and the mechanics of the election to 



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1 proceed. I don't know if we want to go over again 

2 Mr. Case's objection. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Not unless somebody wants 

4 to make a motion. 

5 MR. CASE: It is not an object ion, merely an 

6 inquiry. 

7 MR. SCANLAN: Sorry. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of 

9 this section? If not , that concludes the consideration 

10 of this report. 

11 MR.HAILE: May I raise one more point on 

12 Section 12 to tidy it up so to speak. It says that a 

13 final vote of the Convention approving a proposed new 

14 Constitution shall require a majority. I suggest we 

15 add the phrase or change or amendment of existing 

16 Constitution just to tidy it up. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: It will be consistent too. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comments, questions, 

19 or suggestions? 

20 (The Commission adjourned at 9:25 p.m.) 



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